Re: [AUDITORY] Estimation of auditory sensory thresholds from below: any evidence?

[Padraig Kitterick <Padraig.Kitterick@xxxxxxxxxx>]

UNOFFICIAL

UNOFFICIAL

The approach from below can be a very good approach if you have limited stimulus materials (e.g. sentences) by allowing you to repeat the same sentence repeatedly stating from a very adverse SNR (or very low sensation level) while increasing the SNR for example until the first correct response. That is technically a more efficient way to determine a starting point for the subsequent threshold estimation that is likely to be close to threshold while also “using up” only a single sentence. However I agree with Dick and others that in most cases asking the participant to complete multiple trials where the task is effectively impossible is not very motivating!

Best wishes,

Pádraig

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From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of Les Bernstein <lbernstein@xxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2023 2:21:19 AM
To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Estimation of auditory sensory thresholds from below: any evidence?

 

Of course, there is no auditory "threshold" and Dr. Dennis McFadden has argued for years that the use of the term to indicate the magnitude of the independent variable corresponding to a given level of performance is to confuse the historical background.  Although he is quite correct, I have no illusions that people will retire the term.  As for starting from "above," I agree with Dick.  It's a more efficient way to conduct an experiment.  Still, in an objective psychophysical task with feedback, one could start from below.   Taking the 2-down, 1-up Levitt tracker as an example, in practice, starting from below tends to result in a bunch of "wasted" trials.  The method of limits is, of course, a biased psychophysical procedure that has its own set of issues.

Les

--
Leslie R. Bernstein, Ph.D. | Professor Emeritus
Depts. of Neuroscience and Surgery (Otolaryngology) | UConn School of Medicine
263 Farmington Avenue, Farmington, CT 06030-3401
Office: 860.679.4622 | Fax: 860.679.2495



On 11/18/2023 12:30 AM, Richard F. Lyon wrote:

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I think the subject needs to feel like they're doing the job well, so starting easy (above threshold) makes sense.  And they get to know very well what signal to listen for.

If you approach from below, they don't know what signal to expect, so may not be in an "optimal detector" state of mind.

Dick

On Fri, Nov 17, 2023 at 9:19 PM Massimo Grassi <massimo.grassi@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

Dear all,

I was recently writing a paper about threshold estimation in hearing and at some point I stopped. 

Let suppose you are estimating a frequency discrimination threshold with a classic 2-down 1-up staircase rule (Levitt, 1971). Theoretically, you could approach the threshold from below or from above, I repeat this every year to 1st year students when I teach them the method of limits! In practice, however, in psychoacoustics we rarely-to-never approach the threshold from below.

Is there any reason for this "tradition"? I know the psychometric function should be symmetric below and above threshold! But this does not explain the "tradition"!

All the best from "it is almost winter" North East Italy.

m

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