Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Footsteps in the womb From: "Prof. Efthymios Papatzikis" <efp331@xxxxxxxx> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2025 10:01:18 +0400--Apple-Mail=_691905FC-4D02-4349-A343-00DB001060D7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Dear Jonathan, Thanks for sending this around =E2=80=93 it is a really stimulating = idea. Personally speaking, I am not aware of any empirical work that has = actually measured maternal footsteps - or any other rhythmic movement = induced sound - in utero. The studies I know of on the intrauterine = soundscape (I am not a specialist in this field as I work mostly with = premature infants- so do not take my word for it) give global levels and = spectra, but not event-specific waveforms, so I do not think we = currently have data that would let you specify a =E2=80=9Creal=E2=80=9D = amplitude envelope for footsteps in a strong, evidence-based way. Conceptually, I would be inclined to treat gait-related input as slow, = low-frequency modulations of an already noisy vibroacoustic field, = tightly coupled to vestibular input, rather than as discrete, sharply = defined acoustic impulses. In any given case SNR for any = =E2=80=98=E2=80=9Cauditory=E2=80=9D related source (even if assumed; = considering also that the intrauterine acoustic neurosystemic function = is not the same as ex-utero) will be too low considering the already = messy sound environment in utero. =20 I think that one way to make this useful in your modeling would be to = show that your results are robust across a family of plausible = envelopes: e.g., band-limited low-frequency =E2=80=9Cbursts=E2=80=9D = with different rise times, durations, and dynamic ranges, all occurring = at gait rate and co-occurring with vestibular cycles. That lets you = argue that what really matters is the regular, low-frequency temporal = structure and multi-sensory coupling, not the precise acoustic fine = structure of each step. I=E2=80=99d be very happy to discuss further or look at a draft/preprint = if that would be useful. All best, Efthymios Professor Efthymios (Timos) Papatzikis=20 PhD, PhD, FHEA, Cert.Neuro. - Neuroscience and Medical Psychology, School of Health Sciences and = Psychology, Canadian University Dubai, U.A.E. - NICU Senior Research Fellow, =E2=80=98Panagiotis and Aglaia = Kyriakou=E2=80=99 Children=E2=80=99s Hospital, Athens, Greece - World Health Organization roster of consultants for Brain Health - World Health Organization certified specialist for Social Prescribing - Associate Editor - Frontiers in Pediatric Psychology Journal I may write emails at unusual hours. Please don=E2=80=99t feel obligated = to reply until your normal working time. Our personal time and moments = with family are limited and precious; safeguarding them helps us bring = our best to our work. > On 5 Dec 2025, at 00:03, Jonathan Cannon <cannoj9@xxxxxxxx> wrote: >=20 > Dear all, > I've done some modeling arguing that the audio/vestibular pairing of = maternal gait inside the womb could scaffold the development of beat = perception and the urge to move to music. To respond to reviewers, I = need to argue that maternal footsteps are indeed audible inside the womb = and give some sense of what the amplitude envelope of the sound would = look like. Does anyone have any thoughts about how to go beyond basic = assumptions (I've been assuming audible, low-pass-filtered impulses) to = get a better sense of what maternal footsteps sound like inside the = womb? > (Reply to me directly -- doesn't seem worth starting a long chain = about this) > Thanks, > Jonathan --Apple-Mail=_691905FC-4D02-4349-A343-00DB001060D7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 <html aria-label=3D"message body"><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" = content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body = style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; = line-break: after-white-space;"><p data-start=3D"154" data-end=3D"168" = style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Dear = Jonathan,</p><p data-start=3D"170" data-end=3D"235" style=3D"caret-color: = rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Thanks for sending this around =E2=80=93= it is a really stimulating idea.</p><p data-start=3D"237" = data-end=3D"618" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, = 0);">Personally speaking, I am not aware of any empirical work that has = actually measured maternal footsteps - or any other rhythmic movement = induced sound - in utero. The studies I know of on the intrauterine = soundscape (I am not a specialist in this field as I work mostly with = premature infants- so do not take my word for it) give global levels and = spectra, but not event-specific waveforms, so I do not think we = currently have data that would let you specify a =E2=80=9Creal=E2=80=9D = amplitude envelope for footsteps in a strong, evidence-based way.</p><p = data-start=3D"620" data-end=3D"1475" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); = color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Conceptually, I would be inclined to treat = gait-related input as <span data-start=3D"685" data-end=3D"797">slow,= low-frequency modulations of an already noisy vibroacoustic = field</span><strong data-start=3D"685" data-end=3D"797">, </strong><span = data-start=3D"685" data-end=3D"797">tightly coupled to vestibular = input</span>, rather than as discrete, sharply defined acoustic = impulses. In any given case SNR for any =E2=80=98=E2=80=9Cauditory=E2=80=9D= related source (even if assumed; considering also that the intrauterine = acoustic neurosystemic function is not the same as ex-utero) will be too = low considering the already messy sound environment in utero. = </p><p data-start=3D"620" data-end=3D"1475" style=3D"caret-color: = rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">I think that one way to make this = useful in your modeling would be to show that your results are robust = across a <span data-start=3D"1096" data-end=3D"1104">f</span><span = data-start=3D"1096" data-end=3D"1104">amily</span> of plausible = envelopes: e.g., band-limited low-frequency =E2=80=9Cbursts=E2=80=9D = with different rise times, durations, and dynamic ranges, all occurring = at gait rate and co-occurring with vestibular cycles. That lets you = argue that what really matters is the <strong data-start=3D"1349" = data-end=3D"1420">r</strong><span data-start=3D"1349" = data-end=3D"1420">egular, low-frequency temporal structure and = multi-sensory coupling</span>, not the precise acoustic fine structure = of each step.</p><p data-start=3D"1768" data-end=3D"1857" = style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">I=E2=80=99d be = very happy to discuss further or look at a draft/preprint if that would = be useful.</p><p data-start=3D"1859" data-end=3D"1880" = style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">All best,<br = data-start=3D"1868" data-end=3D"1871">Efthymios</p><div> <meta charset=3D"UTF-8"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, = 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; = text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; overflow-wrap: = break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: = after-white-space;"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, = 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; = text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; overflow-wrap: = break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><b = style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Professor = Efthymios (Timos) Papatzikis</b> <br><i style=3D"color: = rgb(0, 0, 0);">PhD, PhD, FHEA, Cert.Neuro.</i><br><span = style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 11px;">- Neuroscience and = Medical Psychology, School of Health Sciences and Psychology, = Canadian University Dubai, U.A.E.<br>- NICU Senior Research = Fellow, =E2=80=98Panagiotis and Aglaia Kyriakou=E2=80=99 = Children=E2=80=99s Hospital, Athens, Greece<br>- World Health = Organization roster of consultants for Brain Health<br>- World = Health Organization certified specialist for = Social Prescribing<br>- Associate Editor - Frontiers = in Pediatric Psychology Journal</span><br><br><font = face=3D"Helvetica-LightOblique" color=3D"#ff3711" style=3D"font-size: = 11px;"><i>I may write emails at unusual hours. Please don=E2=80=99t = feel obligated to reply until your normal working time. Our = personal time and moments with family are limited and = precious; safeguarding them helps us bring our best to our = work.</i></font></div></div> </div> <div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On 5 Dec 2025, at 00:03, = Jonathan Cannon <cannoj9@xxxxxxxx> wrote:</div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div><meta charset=3D"UTF-8"><div = style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: = 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; = text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: = Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, = sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Dear all,</div><div class=3D"elementToProof"= style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: = 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; = white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; = text-decoration: none; text-align: left; font-family: Aptos, = Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; = font-size: 12pt;">I've done some modeling arguing that the = audio/vestibular pairing of maternal gait inside the womb could scaffold = the development of beat perception and the urge to move to music. To = respond to reviewers, I need to argue that maternal footsteps are = indeed audible inside the womb and give some sense of what the amplitude = envelope of the sound would look like. Does anyone have any thoughts = about how to go beyond basic assumptions (I've been assuming audible, = low-pass-filtered impulses) to get a better sense of what maternal = footsteps sound like inside the womb?</div><div class=3D"elementToProof" = style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: = 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; = white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; = text-decoration: none; text-align: left; font-family: Aptos, = Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; = font-size: 12pt;">(Reply to me directly -- doesn't seem worth starting a = long chain about this)</div><div class=3D"elementToProof" = style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: = 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; = white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; = text-decoration: none; text-align: left; font-family: Aptos, = Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; = font-size: 12pt;">Thanks,</div><div class=3D"elementToProof" = style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: = 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; = white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; = text-decoration: none; text-align: left; font-family: Aptos, = Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; = font-size: = 12pt;">Jonathan</div></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>= --Apple-Mail=_691905FC-4D02-4349-A343-00DB001060D7--