Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] speakers at ear level From: "Richard F. Lyon" <0000030301ff4bce-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2025 10:55:35 -0700--00000000000066a0d40638049269 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000066a0d30638049268" --00000000000066a0d30638049268 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think that when Samuel asked about speakers "below (even if angled up toward the ears)", he was at least partly acknowledging the speaker directional effects that Chris is describing. If the speakers are "angled up" to be "aimed" at the ears, there should be much less falloff of high frequencies. Yet the quality is rather different. I suspect that one needs to get into HRTF, particularly the "torso reflection" part of the HRTF, to explain why a sound from a negative elevation has such a different quality. In particular, the torso reflection induces a destructive interference that makes a comb filter effect even down in the 1-3 kHz region (path differences of a half wavelength being about 2 to 6 inches in that region). You can see some of what I'm talking about in my book, figure 22.7 ( https://dicklyon.com/hmh/Lyon_Hearing_book_01jan2018.pdf ). There's more about this torso reflection effect in these papers, which are easy to find: Lan, Y., Yin, T., & Yu, G. (2022). Effect of torso reflections from simplified torso models on head-related transfer function simulation and ipsilateral perception of elevation. Applied Acoustics, 201, 109095. Reijniers, J., Partoens, B., & Peremans, H. (2023, September). Torso reflection model for dynamic head-related transfer function. In Proceedings of the 10th Convention of the European Acoustics Association (EAA), Torino, Italy (pp. 11-15). Dick On Fri, Jun 20, 2025 at 1:43=E2=80=AFAM Krzysztof Basi=C5=84ski <k.basinski= @xxxxxxxx> wrote: > Sam, > > I=E2=80=99m no physicist but was a sound engineer once=E2=80=A6 The pheno= menon you're > describing is well known and has to do with the directionality of high > frequencies. What they tell you in sound engineering 101 is to place your > tweeters at ear level because they are the ones that emit high frequencie= s > (~ 1-2 kHz and higher). Woofers can be lower, higher, whatever you want > because they emit low and mid frequencies. > > Here=E2=80=99s a nice little blog post that tries to explain the physics = of it: > https://www.theaudioblog.org/post/why-high-frequencies-are-directional-an= d-low-aren-t . > I don=E2=80=99t think there=E2=80=99s much psychology here to be honest -= just the fact > that your auditory system receives less high frequency power when your ea= rs > are not level with the tweeters. > > I=E2=80=99m sure there are much more competent people here that will be a= ble to > explain the physics in greater detail=E2=80=A6 but hope this helps. > > Best, > Chris > *--* > *Krzysztof Basi=C5=84ski, PhD* > PRINCIPAL INVESTIGATOR > *Auditory Neuroscience Laboratory <https://informator.gumed.edu.pl/23>* > anl.gumed.edu.pl <https://mug.edu.pl/> > > ASSISTANT PROFESSOR > > *Division of Quality of Life Research > <https://informator.gumed.edu.pl/23>Medical University of Gda=C5=84sk* > krzysztof.basinski@xxxxxxxx > zbnjz@xxxxxxxx > +48 58 349 1569 > Tuwima 15, 80-210 Gda=C5=84sk > mug.edu.pl <https://mug.edu.pl/> > farU.edu.pl/en <https://faru.edu.pl/en> > > > [image: attachment.png] > > > This e-mail and attachments to it may include information legally > privileged. It is intended solely for the recipient. If you are not the > recipient,please inform the sender accordingly and delete the e-mail with > all attachments received. Copying and/or disseminating this e-mail and > information included in the e-mail by unauthorised individuals is strictl= y > prohibited. Your personal data is administered by Medical University of > Gda=C5=84sk. Information on personal data processing is available at > gumed.edu.pl/55839.html > > On 19 Jun 2025, at 12:07, Samuel Mehr <sam@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > > Hi all, I was moving offices, set up speakers at my desk and was reminded > of the quite striking difference in sound quality when speakers are at ea= r > level vs below (even if angled up toward the ears). > > I was just wondering if anyone has resources explaining why this > phenomenon occurs =E2=80=94 has this been studied in any depth? I imagine= the > physics of it are plain enough to model, but one also wonders about the > psychology of it, which probably is less straightforward. > > thanks, > Sam > > =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 > Samuel Mehr > School of Psychology, University of Auckland > and Child Study Center, Yale University > *Be a citizen scientist at **themusiclab.org* <https://themusiclab.org/> > *!* > > > --00000000000066a0d30638049268 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">I t= hink that when Samuel asked about speakers "below (even if angled up t= oward the ears)", he was at least partly acknowledging the speaker dir= ectional effects that Chris is describing.=C2=A0 If the speakers are "= angled up" to be "aimed" at the ears, there should be much l= ess falloff of high frequencies.=C2=A0 Yet the quality is rather different.= </div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div= class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">I suspect that one needs= to get into HRTF, particularly the "torso reflection" part of th= e HRTF, to explain why a sound from a negative elevation has such a differe= nt quality.=C2=A0 In particular, the torso reflection induces a destructive= interference that makes a comb filter effect even down in the 1-3 kHz regi= on (path differences of a half wavelength being about 2 to 6 inches in that= region).=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:= small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">You= can see some of what I'm talking about in my book, figure 22.7 ( <a hr= ef=3D"https://dicklyon.com/hmh/Lyon_Hearing_book_01jan2018.pdf">https://dic= klyon.com/hmh/Lyon_Hearing_book_01jan2018.pdf</a> ).=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div = class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">There's more about th= is torso reflection effect in these papers, which are easy to find:</div><d= iv class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Lan, Y., Yin, T., &= ; Yu, G. (2022). Effect of torso reflections from simplified torso models o= n head-related transfer function simulation and ipsilateral perception of e= levation. Applied Acoustics, 201, 109095.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"= style=3D"font-size:small">Reijniers, J., Partoens, B., & Peremans, H. = (2023, September). Torso reflection model for dynamic head-related transfer= function. In Proceedings of the 10th Convention of the European Acoustics = Association (EAA), Torino, Italy (pp. 11-15).</div><div class=3D"gmail_defa= ult" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style= =3D"font-size:small">Dick</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-s= ize:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"= ><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div= ></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr= " class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jun 20, 2025 at 1:43=E2=80=AFAM Krzysztof Ba= si=C5=84ski <<a href=3D"mailto:k.basinski@xxxxxxxx">k.basinski@xxxxxxxx= .edu.pl</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"= margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef= t:1ex"><div>Sam,<div><br></div><div>I=E2=80=99m no physicist but was a soun= d engineer once=E2=80=A6 The phenomenon you're describing is well known= and has to do with the directionality of high frequencies. What they tell = you in sound engineering 101 is to place your tweeters at ear level because= they are the ones that emit high frequencies (~ 1-2 kHz and higher). Woofe= rs can be lower, higher, whatever you want because they emit low and mid fr= equencies.</div><div><br></div><div>Here=E2=80=99s a nice little blog post = that tries to explain the physics of it:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.theaud= ioblog.org/post/why-high-frequencies-are-directional-and-low-aren-t" target= =3D"_blank">https://www.theaudioblog.org/post/why-high-frequencies-are-dire= ctional-and-low-aren-t</a>=C2=A0. I don=E2=80=99t think there=E2=80=99s muc= h psychology here to be honest - just the fact that your auditory system re= ceives less high frequency power when your ears are not level with the twee= ters.</div><div><br></div><div>I=E2=80=99m sure there are much more compete= nt people here that will be able to explain the physics in greater detail= =E2=80=A6 but hope this helps.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Chr= is</div><div><div> <div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-v= ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:star= t;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;t= ext-decoration:none;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#023f87= " size=3D"2"><b>--</b></font></div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font= -size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;le= tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh= ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><f= ont face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#023f87" size=3D"2"><b>Krzysztof Basi=C5=84ski,= PhD</b><br>PRINCIPAL INVESTIGATOR</font></div><div style=3D"font-family:He= lvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weig= ht:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans= form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;color:rg= b(0,0,0)"><b style=3D"color:rgb(2,63,135);font-family:Arial"><a href=3D"htt= ps://informator.gumed.edu.pl/23" style=3D"color:rgb(2,63,135)" target=3D"_b= lank">Auditory Neuroscience Laboratory</a></b></div><div style=3D"font-fami= ly:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font= -weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-= transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;col= or:rgb(0,0,0)"><a href=3D"https://mug.edu.pl/" style=3D"font-family:Arial;c= olor:rgb(2,63,135)" target=3D"_blank">anl.gumed.edu.pl</a></div><div style= =3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-cap= s:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-ind= ent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decora= tion:none;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;f= ont-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal= ;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none= ;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;color:rgb(0,0,0)"= ><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#023f87" size=3D"2">ASSISTANT PROFESSOR<br><= b><a href=3D"https://informator.gumed.edu.pl/23" style=3D"color:rgb(2,63,13= 5)" target=3D"_blank">Division of Quality of Life Research</a><br>Medical U= niversity of Gda=C5=84sk</b></font><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-stand= ard"></span><div style=3D"font-family:-webkit-standard;margin:7px 0px"><fon= t face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#023f87" size=3D"2"><a href=3D"mailto:krzysztof.b= asinski@xxxxxxxx" style=3D"color:rgb(2,63,135)" target=3D"_blank">krzys= ztof.basinski@xxxxxxxx</a><br><a href=3D"mailto:zbnjz@xxxxxxxx" sty= le=3D"color:rgb(2,63,135)" target=3D"_blank">zbnjz@xxxxxxxx</a><br>+48 = 58 349 1569<br>Tuwima 15, 80-210 Gda=C5=84sk=C2=A0<br></font></div><font fa= ce=3D"Arial" color=3D"#023f87" size=3D"2"><a href=3D"https://mug.edu.pl/" s= tyle=3D"color:rgb(2,63,135)" target=3D"_blank">mug.edu.pl=C2=A0</a><br><a h= ref=3D"https://faru.edu.pl/en" style=3D"color:rgb(2,63,135)" target=3D"_bla= nk">farU.edu.pl/en=C2=A0</a><br></font><br style=3D"font-family:-webkit-sta= ndard"></div><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style= :normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text= -align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-sp= acing:0px;text-decoration:none;color:rgb(0,0,0)"></span><br style=3D"font-f= amily:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;f= ont-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-= transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;col= or:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-sty= le:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;te= xt-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-= spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;color:rgb(0,0,0)"></span><span style=3D"fo= nt-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:norm= al;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;t= ext-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"></span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helve= tica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:= 400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:n= one;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"></span><span>= <img alt=3D"attachment.png" src=3D"cid:ii_1978e7044a11fa6aade1"></span><spa= n style=3D"font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-w= eight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans= form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;color:rg= b(0,0,0);font-family:-webkit-standard">=C2=A0</span><p style=3D"font-style:= normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-= align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spa= cing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-size:0.5em;font-family:arial;color:rgb(1= 28,128,128)"><br>This e-mail and attachments to it may include information = legally privileged. It is intended solely for the recipient. If you are not= the recipient,please inform the sender accordingly and delete the e-mail w= ith all attachments received. Copying and/or disseminating this e-mail and = information included in the e-mail by unauthorised individuals is strictly = prohibited. Your personal data is administered by Medical University of Gda= =C5=84sk. Information on personal data processing is available at=C2=A0<a h= ref=3D"https://gumed.edu.pl/55839.html" style=3D"color:rgb(128,128,128)" ta= rget=3D"_blank">gumed.edu.pl/55839.html</a></p> </div> <div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On 19 Jun 2025, at 12:07, Samuel Me= hr <<a href=3D"mailto:sam@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">sam@xxxxxxxx= .AC.NZ</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div style=3D"font-family:-apple-system= ,BlinkMacSystemFont,Aptos,Roboto,"Segoe UI",Helvetica,Arial,sans-= serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe = UI Symbol";line-height:1.4;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia= nt-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-= indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-dec= oration:none"><div><div>Hi all, I was moving offices, set up speakers at my= desk and was reminded of the quite striking difference in sound quality wh= en speakers are at ear level vs below (even if angled up toward the ears).= =C2=A0<br><br>I was just wondering if anyone has resources explaining why t= his phenomenon occurs =E2=80=94=C2=A0has this been studied in any depth? I = imagine the physics of it are plain enough to model, but one also wonders a= bout the psychology of it, which probably is less straightforward.<br><br>t= hanks,<br>Sam<br><br></div><div>=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94<br>Samuel Mehr<= br>School of Psychology, University of Auckland<br>and Child Study Center, = Yale University<br><strong>Be a citizen scientist at<span>=C2=A0</span></st= rong><a href=3D"https://themusiclab.org/" target=3D"_blank"><strong>themusi= clab.org</strong></a><strong>!</strong></div></div></div></div></blockquote= ></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div> --00000000000066a0d30638049268-- --00000000000066a0d40638049269 Content-Type: image/png; name="attachment.png" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="attachment.png" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <ii_1978e7044a11fa6aade1> X-Attachment-Id: ii_1978e7044a11fa6aade1 iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAANoAAAAjCAYAAADygBQKAAAACXBIWXMAAA9hAAAPYQGoP6dpAAAb 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