Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Frequency + Political Acoustics From: Douglas Scott <jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2025 08:03:31 -0400--0000000000003eaace0632d0cfb2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Paul Yes. I find Peirce really helpful when trying to understand how terminological disputes, and perhaps disputes in general, arise. Doug On Tue, 15 Apr 2025 at 00:08, Paul Vickers < 00000119062ce4f5-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > =EF=BB=BFBy a =E2=80=98semiotic first=E2=80=99 do you mean Peirce=E2=80= =99s notion of Firstness? > > paul > > -- > > Professor Paul Vickers BSc PhD FHEA > > Sent from my phone > > > On 14 Apr 2025, at 10:51, Jan Schnupp < > 000000e042a1ec30-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > > =EF=BB=BF > *CAUTION*: This email originated from outside of the University. Do not > click links or open attachments unless you recognise the sender and know > the content is safe. > > Hi Doug, > I think what Dick was getting at is periodicity tends to be a pretty good > predictor of the perceived pitch, while individual Fourier components are > much less useful. People like Cariani and Delgutte for example had argued > this quite convincingly, and de Cheveigne and others have also done > interesting work in that direction. I also think that Dick is 100% correc= t > to point out that the word "frequency" can mean very different things in > different contexts, and this often confuses lay people who are unfamiliar > with the not exactly intuitive maths behind Fourier analysis. According t= o > Fourier theory, a white noise burst is an infinite sum of infinitely many > "frequencies", but instead of having infinitely many pitches it has, > arguably, no distinguishable pitch. > I say "arguably" because there is not only ambiguity in the word frequenc= y > is, there is also a lot of uncertainty in the definition of pitch. Much i= nk > has been spilled about the rather useless ANSI definition of pitch "that > attribute of auditory sensation in terms of which sounds may be ordered o= n > a scale extending from low to high" which completely ignores the > possibility that there are numerous directions that could be considered > "up" and that this definition leaves it completely unclear who should do > the ordering and according to which criteria. I can therefore set up a > 2-afc experiment which would demonstrate with pretty high certainty that = a > white noise has a higher pitch than a pink noise or a brown noise. But > comparing the white noise against a few piano notes would likely not resu= lt > in a reliable ordering. Then there are experiments that can show that pit= ch > direction can be ambiguus (eg Pressnitzer's Shepard tone experiments > https://auditoryneuroscience.com/index.php/pitch/ShepardHysteresis) or > that pitch differences can be helpful in scene analysis even if we can no= t > easily attribute pitch values to different sources in a scene ( > https://auditoryneuroscience.com/scene-analysis/double-vowels). > > In my view, our field is not helped by the fact that some of our key > terminology is not really fit for purpose, and the ambiguities around > "frequency"are only one of several examples. Not sure what to do about th= at > though. > > None of this contradicts your view of pitch as a semiotic first though, o= r > your assertion that it can be helpful to draw analogies between pitch and > color. The perception of pitch and color "feels" immediate and in some wa= y > fundamental, but that sense of immediacy belies the complexity of the > sensory processing that constructs these perceived qualities. > > Best, > > Jan > > --------------------------------------- > Prof Jan Schnupp > Gerald Choa Neuroscience Institute > The Chinese University of Hong Kong > Sha Tin > Hong Kong > > https://auditoryneuroscience.com > http://jan.schnupp.net > > > On Sun, 13 Apr 2025 at 06:28, Douglas Scott <jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx> > wrote: > >> Hi Dick >> >> I would have thought the opposite: Pitch isn't usually perceived as a >> frequency in the sense of a rate of repetition, but rather as a semiotic >> First (i.e. a direct perception). This would be analogous to the way col= our >> is perceived versus the frequency of the light that produces the >> sensation, which is even more imperceptible directly. This is how one ca= n >> "spoof" perceptual organs with false colour and reconstruct missing >> fundamentals. >> >> The Fourier transform, meanwhile, is explicitly about repetition of the >> circular motion of various types of circles. It is thus inherently a >> semiotic Second, while assigning a pitch name or class would be a Third. >> >> Of course, these concepts are fluid, so constructing an interpretation i= n >> your terms is also entirely possible, but I don't think it's the default >> way of seeing it. Perhaps I'm biased. >> >> Doug >> >> On Sat, 12 Apr 2025 at 01:31, Richard F. Lyon < >> 0000030301ff4bce-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx> wrote: >> >>> Adam, >>> >>> Thanks for bringing us back to topics more germane to the list. (While >>> I agree there's a lot that needs to be discussed about the current stat= e of >>> craziness in the U.S., I also agree that this list is probably not so g= reat >>> a place to take that on. I realize I'm speaking from a position of >>> almost-retired and already signed up for Social Security, so not as muc= h >>> affected as many. When I was out on the "Hands Off" protest march, >>> Auditory was not on my mind.) >>> >>> I took a glance at your paper, and it looks to me like you didn't do a >>> clear enough job of distinguishing different notions of frequency (mayb= e I >>> need to read more). Pitch, though a perceptual concept, is very closel= y >>> related to the concept of frequency as repetition rate. In physics and >>> math, however, frequency is often thought of as a parameter of a Fourie= r >>> transform, more related to sinusoids, or circular motion, than to >>> repetition. Your paper barely mentions pitch, but I think it's a conce= pt >>> that might help make some of your points better. I look forward to rea= ding >>> more of it. >>> >>> Dick >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2025 at 9:31=E2=80=AFPM Adam Weisser <adam_weisser@xxxxxxxx= mail.fm> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> I would like to share with you my latest piece on the topic of >>>> frequency. While it is not strictly within auditory science, this work >>>> would have never materialized if it weren't for the deeply-ingrained >>>> approach to acoustic signals that has time and frequency as more or le= ss >>>> independent dimensions - two attributes of sound that are interrelated= , but >>>> which we generally perceive as essentially different. Contrasting this >>>> understanding with the fundamental definition of frequency in physics = - the >>>> reciprocal of the period - leaves much to be elucidated and is duly >>>> riddled with paradoxes. >>>> >>>> In this manuscript, I review the different instantiations of the >>>> concept of frequency in physics, engineering, mathematics, and percept= ion, >>>> partially tracing their historical evolution, in attempt to answer the >>>> question of whether frequency can be counted as a separate dimension o= f >>>> reality, in addition to space and time. The resolution ties together t= ime, >>>> frequency, and determinism in a highly counterintuitive manner: >>>> >>>> https://zenodo.org/records/15162477 >>>> >>>> While I have no illusions regarding how this text (and its author) may >>>> come across given the extraordinary claims put forth, I have tried to = go >>>> about it in the most rigorous way I could, while methodically scrutini= zing >>>> some long-held dogmas in the sciences, in hope of sparking further >>>> discussion, somewhere down the road. >>>> >>>> For what it's worth, I'm indebted to what I have learned (or maybe, >>>> mislearned) by virtue of being part of the auditory community. Yet, th= ese >>>> days appear to be challenging to many members of the Auditory List. I = once >>>> had a good colleague (PKR) who lamented how we were never trained in >>>> "political acoustics" in engineering school, that would have endowed u= s >>>> with the necessary skill set to be able to juggle between the various >>>> demands of our whimsical bosses. Even today, still nobody teaches this >>>> subject, and people are expected to figure out this vital skill as the= y go >>>> along, while trying to survive and stay true to what they were origina= lly >>>> hired to do. It's perhaps ironic, because in every other respect, hear= ing >>>> science must be one of the most unifying and all-encompassing of all h= uman >>>> endeavors, being positioned in the nexus between physics, biology, >>>> psychology, neuroscience, perception, communication, language, music, >>>> engineering, medicine, environment, architecture, computer science, >>>> mathematics, and many other disciplines. All this is in opposition to >>>> politics, which usually excels in sowing division, whether we are read= y to >>>> get directly involved with it or not. >>>> >>>> I hope that we can transcend these unpleasant times both as individual= s >>>> and as a community and eventually get back to what we do best, which i= s >>>> study hearing and sound. >>>> >>>> With wishes for better times to come, >>>> And thank you for your attention and time, >>>> Adam. >>>> >>> This message is intended solely for the addressee and may contain > confidential and/or legally privileged information. Any use, disclosure o= r > reproduction without the sender=E2=80=99s explicit consent is unauthorise= d and may > be unlawful. If you have received this message in error, please notify > Northumbria University immediately and permanently delete it. Any views o= r > opinions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and do > not necessarily represent those of the University. Northumbria University > email is provided by Microsoft Office365 and is hosted within the EEA, > although some information may be replicated globally for backup purposes. > The University cannot guarantee that this message or any attachment is > virus free or has not been intercepted and/or amended. > --0000000000003eaace0632d0cfb2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Paul<div><br></div><div>Yes. I find Peirce really helpf= ul when trying to understand how terminological disputes, and perhaps dispu= tes in general, arise.</div><div><br></div><div>Doug</div></div><br><div cl= ass=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_a= ttr">On Tue, 15 Apr 2025 at 00:08, Paul Vickers <<a href=3D"mailto:00000= 119062ce4f5-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx">00000119062ce4f5-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx= ists.mcgill.ca</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st= yle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd= ing-left:1ex"> <div dir=3D"auto"> <div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BFBy a =E2=80=98semiotic first=E2=80=99 do you mean= Peirce=E2=80=99s notion of Firstness? <div><br> </div> <div>paul<br id=3D"m_-3156988243707343689lineBreakAtBeginningOfSignature"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <p style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-size-adj= ust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-liga= tures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;fon= t-feature-settings:normal"> <span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">--</span></p> <p style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-size-adj= ust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-liga= tures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;fon= t-feature-settings:normal"> <span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Professor Paul Vickers= BSc PhD FHEA</span></p> <p style=3D"margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-stre= tch:normal;line-height:normal;font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-= variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeri= c:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal"> <span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Sent from my phone</sp= an></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm"><span style=3D"background-color= :rgba(255,255,255,0)"></span></p> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr"><br> <blockquote type=3D"cite">On 14 Apr 2025, at 10:51, Jan Schnupp <<a href= =3D"mailto:000000e042a1ec30-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank= ">000000e042a1ec30-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br> <br> </blockquote> </div> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> <div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF <div style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,235,156);width:100%;border-style:sol= id;border-color:rgb(156,101,0);border-width:1pt;padding:2pt;font-size:10pt;= line-height:12pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black;text-align:left"> <strong><span style=3D"color:rgb(255,102,0)">CAUTION</span></strong>: This = email originated from outside of the University. Do not click links or open= attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the content is safe. </div> <br> <div> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div>Hi Doug,</div> <div>I think what Dick was getting at is periodicity tends=C2=A0to be a pre= tty good predictor of the perceived pitch, while individual Fourier compone= nts are much less useful. People like Cariani and Delgutte for example had = argued this quite convincingly, and de Cheveigne and others have also done interesting work in that direction. I = also think that Dick is 100% correct to point out that the word "frequ= ency" can mean very different things in different contexts,=C2=A0and t= his often confuses lay=C2=A0people who=C2=A0are unfamiliar with=C2=A0the not exactly intuitive maths behind Fourier analysis. Accordi= ng to Fourier theory, a white noise burst is an infinite sum of infinitely = many "frequencies", but instead of having infinitely many pitches= it has, arguably, no distinguishable pitch.=C2=A0</div> <div>I say "arguably" because there is not only ambiguity in the = word frequency is, there is also a lot of uncertainty in the definition of = pitch. Much ink has been spilled about the rather useless ANSI definition o= f pitch "that attribute of auditory sensation in terms of which sounds may be ordered on a scale extending from low to h= igh" which completely ignores the possibility that there are numerous = directions that could be considered "up" and that this definition= leaves it completely unclear who should do the ordering and according to which criteria. I can therefore set up a 2-afc e= xperiment which would demonstrate with pretty high=C2=A0certainty that a wh= ite noise has a higher pitch than a pink noise or a brown noise. But compar= ing the white noise against a few piano notes would likely not result in a reliable ordering. Then there are exper= iments that can show that pitch direction can be ambiguus=C2=A0(eg Pressnit= zer's=C2=A0Shepard tone experiments <a href=3D"https://auditoryneuroscience.com/index.php/pitch/ShepardHysteres= is" target=3D"_blank"> https://auditoryneuroscience.com/index.php/pitch/ShepardHysteresis</a>) or = that pitch differences can be helpful in scene analysis even if we can not = easily attribute pitch values to different sources in a scene (<a href=3D"h= ttps://auditoryneuroscience.com/scene-analysis/double-vowels" target=3D"_bl= ank">https://auditoryneuroscience.com/scene-analysis/double-vowels</a>).</d= iv> <div><br> </div> <div>In my view, our field is not helped by the fact that some of our key t= erminology is not really fit for purpose, and the ambiguities around "= frequency"are only one of several examples. Not sure what to do about = that though.=C2=A0</div> <div><br> </div> <div>None of this contradicts your view of pitch as a semiotic first though= , or your assertion that it can be helpful to draw analogies between pitch = and color. The perception of pitch and color "feels" immediate an= d in some way fundamental, but that=C2=A0sense of immediacy belies the complexity=C2=A0of the sensory processing that con= structs these perceived=C2=A0qualities.=C2=A0</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Best,</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Jan</div> <div> <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br> </div> <div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">---------------------------------------</di= v> <div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Prof Jan Schnupp</div> <div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Gerald Choa Neuroscience Institute</div> <div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">The Chinese University of Hong Kong</div> <div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Sha Tin</s= pan></div> <div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Hong Kong<= /span><br> </div> <div> <div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br> </div> <a href=3D"https://auditoryneuroscience.com/" target=3D"_blank">https://aud= itoryneuroscience.com</a></div> <div><a href=3D"http://jan.schnupp.net/" target=3D"_blank">http://jan.schnu= pp.net<br> </a></div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <br> </div> <br> <div class=3D"gmail_quote"> <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, 13 Apr 2025 at 06:28, Douglas= Scott <<a href=3D"mailto:jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">jd= musictuition@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-= left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Dick <div><br> </div> <div>I would have thought the opposite: Pitch isn't usually perceived a= s a frequency in the sense of a rate of repetition, but rather as a semioti= c First (i.e. a direct perception). This would be analogous to the way colo= ur is perceived versus the frequency of the light that produces the sensation,=C2=A0which is even more impercep= tible directly. This is how one can "spoof" perceptual organs wit= h false colour and reconstruct missing fundamentals.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>The Fourier transform, meanwhile, is explicitly about repetition of th= e circular motion of various types of circles. It is thus inherently a semi= otic Second, while assigning a pitch name or class would be a Third.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Of course, these concepts are fluid, so constructing an interpretation= in your terms is also entirely possible, but I don't think it's th= e default way of seeing it. Perhaps I'm biased.<br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div>Doug</div> </div> <br> <div class=3D"gmail_quote"> <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, 12 Apr 2025 at 01:31, Richard= F. Lyon <<a href=3D"mailto:0000030301ff4bce-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx= ca" target=3D"_blank">0000030301ff4bce-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx</a>>= ; wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-= left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Adam,</div> <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br> </div> <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Thanks=C2=A0for brin= ging us back to topics more germane to the list.=C2=A0 (While I agree there= 's a lot that needs to be discussed about the current state of crazines= s in the U.S., I also agree that this list is probably not so great a place to take that on.=C2=A0 I realize I'm speaking fro= m a position of almost-retired and already signed up for Social Security, s= o not as much affected as many.=C2=A0 When I was out on the "Hands Off= " protest march, Auditory was not on my mind.)</div> <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br> </div> <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">I took a glance at y= our paper, and it looks to me like you didn't do a clear enough job of = distinguishing different notions of frequency=C2=A0(maybe I need to read mo= re).=C2=A0 Pitch, though a perceptual concept, is very closely related to the concept of frequency as repetition rate.=C2=A0= In physics and math, however, frequency is often thought of as a parameter= of a Fourier transform, more related to sinusoids, or circular motion, tha= n to repetition.=C2=A0 Your paper barely mentions pitch, but I think it's a concept that might help make some of your po= ints better.=C2=A0 I look forward to reading more of it.</div> <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br> </div> <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Dick</div> <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br> </div> </div> <br> <div class=3D"gmail_quote"> <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Apr 11, 2025 at 9:31=E2=80=AF= PM Adam Weisser <<a href=3D"mailto:adam_weisser@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_= blank">adam_weisser@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-= left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <div><u></u> <div> <div style=3D"font-family:Arial">Dear all,</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Arial"><br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Arial">I would like to share with you my latest p= iece on the topic of frequency. While it is not strictly within auditory sc= ience, this work would have never materialized if it weren't for the de= eply-ingrained approach to acoustic signals that has time and frequency as more or less independent dimensions - two a= ttributes of sound that are interrelated, but which we generally perceive a= s essentially different. Contrasting this understanding with the fundamenta= l definition of frequency in physics - the reciprocal of the period=C2=A0 - leaves much to be elucidated and is= duly riddled with paradoxes.</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Arial"><br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Arial">In this manuscript, I review the different= instantiations of the concept of frequency in physics, engineering, mathem= atics, and perception, partially tracing their historical evolution, in att= empt to answer the question of whether frequency can be counted as a separate dimension of reality, in addition t= o space and time. The resolution ties together time, frequency, and determi= nism in a highly counterintuitive manner:</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Arial"><br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Arial"><a href=3D"https://zenodo.org/records/1516= 2477" target=3D"_blank">https://zenodo.org/records/15162477</a></div> <div style=3D"font-family:Arial"><br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Arial">While I have no illusions regarding how th= is text (and its author) may come across given the extraordinary claims put= forth, I have tried to go about it in the most rigorous way I could, while= methodically scrutinizing some long-held dogmas in the sciences, in hope of sparking further discussion, somewhere = down the road.</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Arial"><br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Arial">For what it's worth, I'm indebted = to what I have learned (or maybe, mislearned) by virtue of being part of th= e auditory community. Yet, these days appear to be challenging to many memb= ers of the Auditory List.=C2=A0I once had a good colleague (PKR) who lamented how we were never trained in "political = acoustics" in engineering school, that would have endowed us with the = necessary skill set to be able to juggle between the various demands of our= whimsical bosses. Even today, still nobody teaches this subject, and people are expected to figure out this vital ski= ll as they go along, while trying to survive and stay true to what they wer= e originally hired to do. It's perhaps ironic, because in every other r= espect, hearing science must be one of the most unifying and all-encompassing of all human endeavors, being po= sitioned in the nexus between physics, biology, psychology, neuroscience, p= erception, communication, language, music, engineering, medicine, environme= nt, architecture, computer science, mathematics, and many other disciplines. All this is in opposition to poli= tics, which=C2=A0usually excels in sowing division, whether we are ready to= get directly involved with it or not.</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Arial"><br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Arial">I hope that we can transcend these unpleas= ant times both as individuals and as a community and eventually get back to= what we do best, which is study hearing and sound.</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Arial"><br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Arial">With wishes for better times to come,</div= > <div style=3D"font-family:Arial">And thank you for your attention and time,= </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Arial">Adam.</div> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> </blockquote> </div> </blockquote> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> </div> This message is intended solely for the addressee and may contain confident= ial and/or legally privileged information. Any use, disclosure or reproduct= ion without the sender=E2=80=99s explicit consent is unauthorised and may b= e unlawful. If you have received this message in error, please notify Northumbria University immediately and permanently= delete it. Any views or opinions expressed in this message are solely thos= e of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the University. N= orthumbria University email is provided by Microsoft Office365 and is hosted within the EEA, although some informa= tion may be replicated globally for backup purposes. The University cannot = guarantee that this message or any attachment is virus free or has not been= intercepted and/or amended. </div> </blockquote></div> --0000000000003eaace0632d0cfb2--