Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Frequency + Political Acoustics From: "Richard F. Lyon" <0000030301ff4bce-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2025 10:12:19 -0700--00000000000064cd3c0632ac0acf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Doug, thanks for your comments. I was thinking more of the physical correlates of what we call pitch (your "semiotic First", which isn't a framework I've ever paid attention to). My point is just that the percept of pitch is better explainable in terms of repetition than in terms of sinusoid frequencies (Fourier components). I'm also "biased" here of course, as a long-time advocate of this viewpoint, which is not the default, but also not radical. There is a long history of back-and-forth between these viewpoints, going back to Ohm and Seebeck, which is recounted in many places, including in my book Human and Machine Hearing. Fourier analysis, or characterization of signals and systems in terms of sinusoids, is very appropriate in the context of linear systems, but very limiting and sometimes misleading when applied inappropriately to nonlinear systems such as the auditory system. The conflation of pitch (measured in Hz, typically) and fundamental frequency (also measured in Hz) is usually not a big deal, like when discussing signals that are actually periodic and have a fundamental component, but can lead to confusions otherwise. I think the notion that we "reconstruct missing fundamentals" is part of that confusion. We agree, I expect, that the pitch of a periodic signal with a missing fundamental is the same as the repetition frequency (in typical cases, at least), which would be the frequency of the fundamental if it were present. But we don't need to "reconstruct" that sinusoid, or measure its frequency, or acknowledge its presence or absence, to get at the pitch. In fact, most modern pitch estimation algorithms use an auditory-model-like analysis structure and arrive at the answer without any kind of fundamental reconstruction; they're just looking at how much time shift it takes for the output of the nonlinear analysis to nearly match itself. No frequency domain needed. This method generalizes well to repeated noise bursts and other aperiodic signals that have a perceived pitch, whether they have discrete sinusoidal components or not. Anyway, I still need to read Adam's paper to understand where he's heading. Maybe we'll discuss more later. Dick On Sat, Apr 12, 2025 at 9:26=E2=80=AFPM Douglas Scott <jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx= .com> wrote: > Hi Dick > > I would have thought the opposite: Pitch isn't usually perceived as a > frequency in the sense of a rate of repetition, but rather as a semiotic > First (i.e. a direct perception). This would be analogous to the way colo= ur > is perceived versus the frequency of the light that produces the > sensation, which is even more imperceptible directly. This is how one can > "spoof" perceptual organs with false colour and reconstruct missing > fundamentals. > > The Fourier transform, meanwhile, is explicitly about repetition of the > circular motion of various types of circles. It is thus inherently a > semiotic Second, while assigning a pitch name or class would be a Third. > > Of course, these concepts are fluid, so constructing an interpretation in > your terms is also entirely possible, but I don't think it's the default > way of seeing it. Perhaps I'm biased. > > Doug > > On Sat, 12 Apr 2025 at 01:31, Richard F. Lyon < > 0000030301ff4bce-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > >> Adam, >> >> Thanks for bringing us back to topics more germane to the list. (While = I >> agree there's a lot that needs to be discussed about the current state o= f >> craziness in the U.S., I also agree that this list is probably not so gr= eat >> a place to take that on. I realize I'm speaking from a position of >> almost-retired and already signed up for Social Security, so not as much >> affected as many. When I was out on the "Hands Off" protest march, >> Auditory was not on my mind.) >> >> I took a glance at your paper, and it looks to me like you didn't do a >> clear enough job of distinguishing different notions of frequency (maybe= I >> need to read more). Pitch, though a perceptual concept, is very closely >> related to the concept of frequency as repetition rate. In physics and >> math, however, frequency is often thought of as a parameter of a Fourier >> transform, more related to sinusoids, or circular motion, than to >> repetition. Your paper barely mentions pitch, but I think it's a concep= t >> that might help make some of your points better. I look forward to read= ing >> more of it. >> >> Dick >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2025 at 9:31=E2=80=AFPM Adam Weisser <adam_weisser@xxxxxxxx= ail.fm> >> wrote: >> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> I would like to share with you my latest piece on the topic of >>> frequency. While it is not strictly within auditory science, this work >>> would have never materialized if it weren't for the deeply-ingrained >>> approach to acoustic signals that has time and frequency as more or les= s >>> independent dimensions - two attributes of sound that are interrelated,= but >>> which we generally perceive as essentially different. Contrasting this >>> understanding with the fundamental definition of frequency in physics -= the >>> reciprocal of the period - leaves much to be elucidated and is duly >>> riddled with paradoxes. >>> >>> In this manuscript, I review the different instantiations of the concep= t >>> of frequency in physics, engineering, mathematics, and perception, >>> partially tracing their historical evolution, in attempt to answer the >>> question of whether frequency can be counted as a separate dimension of >>> reality, in addition to space and time. The resolution ties together ti= me, >>> frequency, and determinism in a highly counterintuitive manner: >>> >>> https://zenodo.org/records/15162477 >>> >>> While I have no illusions regarding how this text (and its author) may >>> come across given the extraordinary claims put forth, I have tried to g= o >>> about it in the most rigorous way I could, while methodically scrutiniz= ing >>> some long-held dogmas in the sciences, in hope of sparking further >>> discussion, somewhere down the road. >>> >>> For what it's worth, I'm indebted to what I have learned (or maybe, >>> mislearned) by virtue of being part of the auditory community. Yet, the= se >>> days appear to be challenging to many members of the Auditory List. I o= nce >>> had a good colleague (PKR) who lamented how we were never trained in >>> "political acoustics" in engineering school, that would have endowed us >>> with the necessary skill set to be able to juggle between the various >>> demands of our whimsical bosses. Even today, still nobody teaches this >>> subject, and people are expected to figure out this vital skill as they= go >>> along, while trying to survive and stay true to what they were original= ly >>> hired to do. It's perhaps ironic, because in every other respect, heari= ng >>> science must be one of the most unifying and all-encompassing of all hu= man >>> endeavors, being positioned in the nexus between physics, biology, >>> psychology, neuroscience, perception, communication, language, music, >>> engineering, medicine, environment, architecture, computer science, >>> mathematics, and many other disciplines. All this is in opposition to >>> politics, which usually excels in sowing division, whether we are ready= to >>> get directly involved with it or not. >>> >>> I hope that we can transcend these unpleasant times both as individuals >>> and as a community and eventually get back to what we do best, which is >>> study hearing and sound. >>> >>> With wishes for better times to come, >>> And thank you for your attention and time, >>> Adam. >>> >> --00000000000064cd3c0632ac0acf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Dou= g, thanks for your comments.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon= t-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:sma= ll">I was thinking more of the physical=C2=A0correlates of what we call pit= ch (your "semiotic First", which isn't a framework I've e= ver paid attention to).=C2=A0 My point is just that the=C2=A0percept of pit= ch is better explainable in terms of repetition than in terms of sinusoid f= requencies (Fourier components).</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D= "font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size= :small">I'm also "biased" here of course, as a long-time advo= cate of this viewpoint, which is not the default, but also not radical.=C2= =A0 There is a long history of back-and-forth between these viewpoints, goi= ng back to Ohm and Seebeck, which is recounted in many places, including in= my book Human and Machine Hearing.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style= =3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-s= ize:small">Fourier analysis, or characterization of signals and systems in = terms of sinusoids, is very appropriate in the context of linear systems, b= ut very limiting and sometimes misleading when applied inappropriately to n= onlinear systems such as the auditory system.=C2=A0 The conflation of pitch= (measured in Hz, typically) and fundamental frequency (also measured in Hz= ) is usually not a big deal, like when discussing signals that are actually= periodic and have a fundamental component, but can lead to confusions othe= rwise.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:sma= ll"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">I thin= k the notion that we "reconstruct missing fundamentals" is part o= f that confusion.=C2=A0 We agree, I expect, that the pitch of a periodic si= gnal with a missing fundamental is the same as the repetition frequency (in= typical cases, at least), which would be the frequency of the fundamental = if it were present.=C2=A0 But we don't need to "reconstruct" = that sinusoid, or measure its frequency,=C2=A0or acknowledge its presence o= r absence, to get at the pitch.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_defaul= t" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style= =3D"font-size:small">In fact, most modern pitch estimation algorithms use a= n auditory-model-like analysis structure and arrive at the answer without a= ny kind of fundamental reconstruction; they're just looking at how much= time shift it takes for the output of the nonlinear analysis to nearly mat= ch itself.=C2=A0 No frequency domain needed.=C2=A0 This method generalizes = well to repeated noise bursts and other aperiodic signals that have a perce= ived pitch, whether they have discrete sinusoidal components or not.</div><= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div class= =3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Anyway, I still need to read A= dam's paper to understand where he's heading.=C2=A0 Maybe we'll= discuss more later.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:s= mall"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Dick= </div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div= class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"= gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_defa= ult" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quot= e gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Apr = 12, 2025 at 9:26=E2=80=AFPM Douglas Scott <<a href=3D"mailto:jdmusictuit= ion@xxxxxxxx">jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote= class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px so= lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Dick<div><br></d= iv><div>I would have thought the opposite: Pitch isn't usually perceive= d as a frequency in the sense of a rate of repetition, but rather as a semi= otic First (i.e. a direct perception). This would be analogous to the way c= olour is perceived versus the frequency of the light that produces the sens= ation,=C2=A0which is even more imperceptible directly. This is how one can = "spoof" perceptual organs with false colour and reconstruct missi= ng fundamentals.</div><div><br></div><div>The Fourier transform, meanwhile,= is explicitly about repetition of the circular motion of various types of = circles. It is thus inherently a semiotic Second, while assigning a pitch n= ame or class would be a Third.</div><div><br></div><div>Of course, these co= ncepts are fluid, so constructing an interpretation in your terms is also e= ntirely possible, but I don't think it's the default way of seeing = it. Perhaps I'm biased.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Doug</div></div><b= r><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, = 12 Apr 2025 at 01:31, Richard F. Lyon <<a href=3D"mailto:0000030301ff4bc= e-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">0000030301ff4bce-dmarc-r= equest@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q= uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2= 04);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style= =3D"font-size:small">Adam,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-= size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small= ">Thanks=C2=A0for bringing us back to topics more germane to the list.=C2= =A0 (While I agree there's a lot that needs to be discussed about the c= urrent state of craziness in the U.S., I also agree that this list is proba= bly not so great a place to take that on.=C2=A0 I realize I'm speaking = from a position of almost-retired and already signed up for Social Security= , so not as much affected as many.=C2=A0 When I was out on the "Hands = Off" protest march, Auditory was not on my mind.)</div><div class=3D"g= mail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_defau= lt" style=3D"font-size:small">I took a glance at your paper, and it looks t= o me like you didn't do a clear enough job of distinguishing different = notions of frequency=C2=A0(maybe I need to read more).=C2=A0 Pitch, though = a perceptual concept, is very closely related to the concept of frequency a= s repetition rate.=C2=A0 In physics and math, however, frequency is often t= hought of as a parameter of a Fourier transform, more related to sinusoids,= or circular motion, than to repetition.=C2=A0 Your paper barely mentions p= itch, but I think it's a concept that might help make some of your poin= ts better.=C2=A0 I look forward to reading more of it.</div><div class=3D"g= mail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_defau= lt" style=3D"font-size:small">Dick</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style= =3D"font-size:small"><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div di= r=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Apr 11, 2025 at 9:31=E2=80=AFPM Adam= Weisser <<a href=3D"mailto:adam_weisser@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">= adam_weisser@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail= _quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204= ,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><u></u><div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial">D= ear all,</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style=3D"font= -family:Arial">I would like to share with you my latest piece on the topic = of frequency. While it is not strictly within auditory science, this work w= ould have never materialized if it weren't for the deeply-ingrained app= roach to acoustic signals that has time and frequency as more or less indep= endent dimensions - two attributes of sound that are interrelated, but whic= h we generally perceive as essentially different. Contrasting this understa= nding with the fundamental definition of frequency in physics - the recipro= cal of the period=C2=A0 - leaves much to be elucidated and is duly riddled = with paradoxes.</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style= =3D"font-family:Arial">In this manuscript, I review the different instantia= tions of the concept of frequency in physics, engineering, mathematics, and= perception, partially tracing their historical evolution, in attempt to an= swer the question of whether frequency can be counted as a separate dimensi= on of reality, in addition to space and time. The resolution ties together = time, frequency, and determinism in a highly counterintuitive manner:</div>= <div style=3D"font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial"= ><a href=3D"https://zenodo.org/records/15162477" target=3D"_blank">https://= zenodo.org/records/15162477</a></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial"><br><= /div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial">While I have no illusions regarding h= ow this text (and its author) may come across given the extraordinary claim= s put forth, I have tried to go about it in the most rigorous way I could, = while methodically scrutinizing some long-held dogmas in the sciences, in h= ope of sparking further discussion, somewhere down the road.</div><div styl= e=3D"font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial">For what= it's worth, I'm indebted to what I have learned (or maybe, mislear= ned) by virtue of being part of the auditory community. Yet, these days app= ear to be challenging to many members of the Auditory List.=C2=A0I once had= a good colleague (PKR) who lamented how we were never trained in "pol= itical acoustics" in engineering school, that would have endowed us wi= th the necessary skill set to be able to juggle between the various demands= of our whimsical bosses. Even today, still nobody teaches this subject, an= d people are expected to figure out this vital skill as they go along, whil= e trying to survive and stay true to what they were originally hired to do.= It's perhaps ironic, because in every other respect, hearing science m= ust be one of the most unifying and all-encompassing of all human endeavors= , being positioned in the nexus between physics, biology, psychology, neuro= science, perception, communication, language, music, engineering, medicine,= environment, architecture, computer science, mathematics, and many other d= isciplines. All this is in opposition to politics, which=C2=A0usually excel= s in sowing division, whether we are ready to get directly involved with it= or not.</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style=3D"font= -family:Arial">I hope that we can transcend these unpleasant times both as = individuals and as a community and eventually get back to what we do best, = which is study hearing and sound.</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial"><br= ></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial">With wishes for better times to com= e,</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial">And thank you for your attention a= nd time,</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial">Adam.</div></div></div></blo= ckquote></div> </blockquote></div> </blockquote></div> --00000000000064cd3c0632ac0acf--