Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Quality of discourse [was: Silence from leaders in auditory science] From: Brian FG Katz <brian.katz@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2025 10:31:59 +0200This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_019A_01DBAC5F.498D01D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Terry,=20 =20 I am not going to continue this back and forth without objective or = further generalisations. We have shown solidarity as individuals and as = a community, many of our countries have made bold statements and are = showing support (see for example this French senator=E2=80=99s speech = https://youtu.be/wmDVrV7QRrU and this call by the French Minister for = Higher Education and Research to welcome US researchers in France, = written up in Le Monde: = https://www.lemonde.fr/en/united-states/article/2025/03/09/french-researc= h-groups-urged-to-welcome-scientists-fleeing-us_6738976_133.html). While = we are not ignoring the US situation, we are also not the community who = elected them into power and have a true voice in affecting the = situation. The anti-science movement is a strongly US issue (with its = creep into other countries being more or less constrained by a general = respect for knowledge), and much like funding, is founded on where the = local society decides to put its money and resources.=20 =20 Like your cited Dr. Ardem Patapoutian, my career also spans various = countries and I am surely the better for it. What would interest me here = actually (and maybe others) who are outside the US, is to know how the = current actions are actually affecting =E2=80=9Cour=E2=80=9D research = fields in the US. I know of colleagues who have lost whole NEA grant = calls, affecting historical acoustic research projects, as Arts and = Humanities are easy targets. Are there major cuts to research at Walter = Reed National Military Medical Center and the U.S. Army Institute of = Public Health directly affecting you or colleagues, and if so how are = they presented? Thematic (DEI) or brute cost cutting (DOGE)? Do you see = going abroad as a solution for researchers being impacted?=20 =20 Another 2-cents=E2=80=A6 -- Brian FG Katz, Research Director, CNRS Groupe Lutheries - Acoustique =E2=80=93 Musique Sorbonne Universit=C3=A9, CNRS, UMR 7190, Institut Jean Le Rond = =E2=88=82'Alembert=20 http://www.dalembert.upmc.fr/home/katz =20 De : AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception = <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> De la part de T. T. Perry Envoy=C3=A9 : samedi 12 avril 2025 19:25 =C3=80 : AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx Objet : Re: [AUDITORY] Quality of discourse [was: Silence from leaders = in auditory science] =20 Hi Brian, =20 Thank you for addressing my question so directly. I ask questions when I = don't know the answer, and now I have a clearer understanding of what = motivates beliefs about Auditory List and why some object to discussion = of anti-science attacks by politicians and ideological movements, like = anti-vaxxers. To summarize my understanding from reading your emails, it = seems that some view such discussion as irrelevant to auditory science = due to differences in geography, power, and/or interest among List = subscribers. I am left contemplating the way these same differences are = ignored when it comes to other topics on the List, but at least the = reasons have been enumerated. =20 I personally do not agree with foreclosing the possibility of = transnational solidarity among scientists in advance, and in fact = because American scientists largely ignored what was happening in = Hungary, American scientists now find themselves facing a similar fight = at home, unprepared. I'd also like to acknowledge that the threat and = scope of the anti-science movement is qualitatively different from = debates about relative funding level differences between labs in France, = and makes for a poor point of comparison. =20 I have no more questions to ask, as the picture is now clear to me as to = why things are the way they are and how we got here. I will instead = leave the list with two bits of reading. One is a CNN editorial by Nobel = Laureate Dr. Ardem Patapoutian, who points out that his scientific = career crosses nation-state boundaries, complicating simple narratives = about what's "local" and what's "global" (and highlighting how borders = can be weaponized against science, something that will always be = invisible in a balkanized framework of scientific collaboration). He = says, " These actions against science are indiscriminate and risk doing = real, long-lasting harm," and " Now is the time for all of us to speak = up" = https://www.cnn.com/2025/04/09/health/nobel-laureate-research-funding-pat= apoutian/index.html =20 I also want to share the advice of Christina Pagel, professor of = operational research: "Those of us in the rest of the world also face = choices, and history will judge us too on what we decide. First, we must = support our US colleagues and their institutions." = https://www.bmj.com/content/387/bmj.q2654 =20 Clearly not everyone in academia shares the same narrow vision of what = constitutes mutual interest and solidarity between scientists. =20 Sincerely, Perry they/them =20 =20 On Fri, Apr 11, 2025 at 9:22=E2=80=AFPM Brian FG Katz = <brian.katz@xxxxxxxx = <mailto:brian.katz@xxxxxxxx> > wrote: Dear Doug,=20 =20 Thank you for your remark. To further the point, please let me indulge = you all in one last comment.=20 =20 While the notion of =E2=80=9Cpublish or perish=E2=80=9D is of conceptual = concern, I would not consider it the principle concern here in France. = Unlike the US, UK, and some other countries, I am quite pleased that = France has not embraced the strict quantification of publications = (journal impact, h-index, etc.) in career evaluations. =20 Of much more significant importance in France on early career = researchers (in my opinion) is the severe limitation on consecutive = post-doc/non-tenured contracts due to French employment law, resulting = in many motivated candidates being forced out of French public = research/university and either into the private sector or abroad if they = do not get a position quickly. The general policy of also not recruiting = from within (not able to get a tenured position where you completed your = earlier works) means a severe lack of continuity in the knowledge/skill = base within a team of small size, while large teams are more robust = (i.e. favouring the well-established at the detriment of those = emerging). Of course, these policies and a discussion around them is of = little direct relevance to those outside of France.=20 =20 This is not to start an open discussion on who has it harder, but simply = to reiterate that much of what we may be frustrated with in our careers, = outside of scientific questions, is still more often than not a *local* = issue, and not necessarily of relevance to an international disciple = discussion.=20 =20 My 2-cents more. =20 -Brian=20 -- Brian FG Katz, Research Director, CNRS Groupe Lutheries - Acoustique =E2=80=93 Musique Sorbonne Universit=C3=A9, CNRS, UMR 7190, Institut Jean Le Rond = =E2=88=82'Alembert=20 http://www.dalembert.upmc.fr/home/katz =20 De : AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception = <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> > De la part = de Douglas Scott Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 11 avril 2025 05:08 =C3=80 : AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx>=20 Objet : Re: [AUDITORY] Quality of discourse [was: Silence from leaders = in auditory science] =20 Hi Brian Thanks for this excellent post. It mirrors my sentiments very closely. For what it's worth, the abysmal plight of early career researchers and = continued tacit institutional endorsement of publish or perish culture = are much more pressing concerns if politics absolutely have to be = discussed. =20 Doug =20 On Wed, 9 Apr 2025 at 00:37, Brian FG Katz = <brian.katz@xxxxxxxx = <mailto:brian.katz@xxxxxxxx> > wrote: Dear all (who are still members of this list),=20 =20 I would like to say a few words, which are something of a paraphrasing = of things said in previous threads over the years for the same reason.=20 =20 This email list is an international community in auditory science in the = largest sense of the term. While there are events and questions of = national/regional interest that occur around the world, it behoves list = members to remember that fact. While the situation in the USA at present = is =E2=80=9Cdifficult=E2=80=9D (understatement), and those not in the = USA feel empathy for our colleagues, and may have certain stronger feels = toward the political decisions being made, they nevertheless remain = political decisions for which the international community are but = observers, without a vote. =20 I, for example, would not bring to this list a discussion on issues = currently being debated in France where large amounts of national = funding would be reserved for specific allocation to = =E2=80=9Ckeylabs=E2=80=9D, that is labs which are designated as the most = funded, most prolific (i.e. give those with money more money because = they are doing something =E2=80=9Cright=E2=80=9D), something which puts = all other researchers in the field at a disadvantage. It is a fight we = are having, but this list is not the forum, despite the numerous French = researchers on the list, other than to inform list members in other = countries of how things are evolving elsewhere.=20 =20 Several mentions have already been made of opportunities open to welcome = researchers in other countries, to help those who are so adventurous as = to leave the USA. This is a clear action by those countries and senior = scientists in response to the situation within their power, far from = silence. International participation in the =E2=80=9CStand Up for = Science=E2=80=9D movement in strong support of our American based = colleagues is another example of such empathy. I, myself, left the USA = 25 years ago as there was little hope already at that time in obtaining = funding in the areas of research that interested me. =20 =20 Mention has also been made of using better avenues for action and = national related discussions. There are no doubt numerous national = societies associated with various disciplines of list members where more = directed discussions would seem more appropriate.=20 =20 So, in summary, the calls to =E2=80=9CMove On=E2=80=9D are not to = disrespect the importance of the issue raised to those involved, but to = highlight that this is probably not the audience for = =E2=80=9Clocal=E2=80=9D political discussions, unless the intention is = to alienate those from outside.=20 =20 And with that, I will end my 2-cents worth. =20 -Brian -- Brian FG Katz, Research Director, CNRS Groupe Lutheries - Acoustique =E2=80=93 Musique Sorbonne Universit=C3=A9, CNRS, UMR 7190, Institut Jean Le Rond = =E2=88=82'Alembert=20 http://www.dalembert.upmc.fr/home/katz =20 ------=_NextPart_000_019A_01DBAC5F.498D01D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta = http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><meta = name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered = medium)"><style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @xxxxxxxx {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @xxxxxxxx {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0cm; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} span.gmail-name {mso-style-name:gmail-name;} span.gmail-contrib-role {mso-style-name:gmail-contrib-role;} span.EmailStyle22 {mso-style-type:personal-compose; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:windowtext;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;} @xxxxxxxx WordSection1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} --></style></head><body lang=3DEN-GB link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple = style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div class=3DWordSection1><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Hello = Terry, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I am not = going to continue this back and forth without objective or further = generalisations. We have shown solidarity as individuals and as a = community, many of our countries have made bold statements and are = showing support (see for example this French senator=E2=80=99s speech <a = href=3D"https://youtu.be/wmDVrV7QRrU">https://youtu.be/wmDVrV7QRrU</a> = and this call by the French Minister for Higher Education and Research = to welcome US researchers in France, written up in Le Monde: <a = href=3D"https://www.lemonde.fr/en/united-states/article/2025/03/09/french= -research-groups-urged-to-welcome-scientists-fleeing-us_6738976_133.html"= >https://www.lemonde.fr/en/united-states/article/2025/03/09/french-resear= ch-groups-urged-to-welcome-scientists-fleeing-us_6738976_133.html</a>). = While we are not ignoring the US situation, we are also not the = community who elected them into power and have a true voice in affecting = the situation. The anti-science movement is a strongly US issue (with = its creep into other countries being more or less constrained by a = general respect for knowledge), and much like funding, is founded on = where the local society decides to put its money and resources. = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Like your = cited </span>Dr. Ardem Patapoutian, my career also spans various = countries and I am surely the better for it. <span = style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>What would interest me here = actually (and maybe others) who are outside the US, is to know how the = current actions are actually affecting =E2=80=9Cour=E2=80=9D research = fields in the US. I know of colleagues who have lost whole NEA grant = calls, affecting historical acoustic research projects, as Arts and = Humanities are easy targets. Are there major cuts to research at Walter = Reed National Military Medical Center and the U.S. Army Institute of = Public Health directly affecting you or colleagues, and if so how are = they presented? Thematic (DEI) or brute cost cutting (DOGE)? Do you see = going abroad as a solution for researchers being impacted? = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Another = 2-cents=E2=80=A6<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'>--</span><o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Brian FG Katz, Research = Director, CNRS</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DFR = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Groupe Lutheries - Acoustique = =E2=80=93 Musique</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DFR = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Sorbonne Universit=C3=A9, CNRS, = UMR 7190, Institut Jean Le Rond =E2=88=82'Alembert </span><span = lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DFR = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><a = href=3D"http://www.dalembert.upmc.fr/home/katz">http://www.dalembert.upmc= .fr/home/katz</a></span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DFR = style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div = style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm = 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = lang=3DFR>De :</span></b><span lang=3DFR> AUDITORY - Research in = Auditory Perception <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> <b>De la part = de</b> T. T. Perry<br><b>Envoy=C3=A9 :</b> samedi 12 avril 2025 = 19:25<br><b>=C3=80 :</b> = AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx<br><b>Objet :</b> Re: [AUDITORY] Quality = of discourse [was: Silence from leaders in auditory = science]<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi = Brian,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>Thank you for addressing my question so directly. I = ask questions when I don't know the answer, and now I have a clearer = understanding of what motivates beliefs about Auditory List and why some = object to discussion of anti-science attacks by politicians and = ideological movements, like anti-vaxxers. To summarize my understanding = from reading your emails, it seems that some view such discussion as = irrelevant to auditory science due to differences in geography, power, = and/or interest among List subscribers. I am left contemplating the way = these same differences are ignored when it comes to other topics on the = List, but at least the reasons have been = enumerated.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I = personally do not agree with foreclosing the possibility of = transnational solidarity among scientists in advance, and in fact = because American scientists largely ignored what was happening in = Hungary, American scientists now find themselves facing a similar fight = at home, unprepared. I'd also like to acknowledge that the threat and = scope of the anti-science movement is qualitatively different from = debates about relative funding level differences between labs in France, = and makes for a poor point of comparison.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I = have no more questions to ask, as the picture is now clear to me as to = why things are the way they are and how we got here. I will instead = leave the list with two bits of reading. One is a CNN editorial by Nobel = Laureate Dr. Ardem Patapoutian, who points out that his scientific = career crosses nation-state boundaries, complicating simple narratives = about what's "local" and what's "global" (and = highlighting how borders can be weaponized against science, something = that will always be invisible in a balkanized framework of scientific = collaboration). He says, " These actions against science are = indiscriminate and risk doing real, long-lasting harm," and " = Now is the time for all of us to speak up" <a = href=3D"https://www.cnn.com/2025/04/09/health/nobel-laureate-research-fun= ding-patapoutian/index.html">https://www.cnn.com/2025/04/09/health/nobel-= laureate-research-funding-patapoutian/index.html</a><o:p></o:p></p></div>= <div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>I also want to share the advice of <span = class=3Dgmail-name>Christina Pagel</span><span = class=3Dgmail-contrib-role>, professor of operational research: = </span>"Those of us in the rest of the world also face choices, and = history will judge us too on what we decide. First, we must support our = US colleagues and their institutions." <a = href=3D"https://www.bmj.com/content/387/bmj.q2654">https://www.bmj.com/co= ntent/387/bmj.q2654</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>Clearly not everyone in academia shares the same = narrow vision of what constitutes mutual interest and solidarity between = scientists.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>Sincerely,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>Perry<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>they/them<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On = Fri, Apr 11, 2025 at 9:22=E2=80=AFPM Brian FG Katz <<a = href=3D"mailto:brian.katz@xxxxxxxx">brian.katz@xxxxxxxx= versite.fr</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote = style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm = 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Dear Doug, = <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><= /o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Thank you = for your remark. To further the point, please let me indulge you all in = one last comment. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><= /o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>While the = notion of =E2=80=9Cpublish or perish=E2=80=9D is of conceptual concern, = I would not consider it the principle concern here in France. Unlike the = US, UK, and some other countries, I am quite pleased that France has not = embraced the strict quantification of publications (journal impact, = h-index, etc.) in career evaluations.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><= /o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Of much = more significant importance in France on early career researchers (in my = opinion) is the severe limitation on consecutive post-doc/non-tenured = contracts due to French employment law, resulting in many motivated = candidates being forced out of French public research/university and = either into the private sector or abroad if they do not get a position = quickly. The general policy of also not recruiting from within (not able = to get a tenured position where you completed your earlier works) means = a severe lack of continuity in the knowledge/skill base within a team of = small size, while large teams are more robust (i.e. favouring the = well-established at the detriment of those emerging). Of course, these = policies and a discussion around them is of little direct relevance to = those outside of France. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><= /o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>This is not = to start an open discussion on who has it harder, but simply to = reiterate that much of what we may be frustrated with in our careers, = outside of scientific questions, is still more often than not a = *<b>local</b>* issue, and not necessarily of relevance to an = international disciple discussion. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><= /o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>My 2-cents = more.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><= /o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>-Brian = <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'>--</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Brian FG Katz, Research Director, = CNRS</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span = lang=3DFR style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Groupe Lutheries - = Acoustique =E2=80=93 Musique</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span = lang=3DFR style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Sorbonne = Universit=C3=A9, CNRS, UMR 7190, Institut Jean Le Rond = =E2=88=82'Alembert </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span = lang=3DFR style=3D'color:#1F497D'><a = href=3D"http://www.dalembert.upmc.fr/home/katz" = target=3D"_blank">http://www.dalembert.upmc.fr/home/katz</a></span><o:p><= /o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span = lang=3DFR> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div = style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm = 0cm 0cm;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor'><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span = lang=3DFR>De :</span></b><span lang=3DFR> AUDITORY - Research in = Auditory Perception <<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" = target=3D"_blank">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a>> <b>De la part de</b> = Douglas Scott<br><b>Envoy=C3=A9 :</b> vendredi 11 avril 2025 = 05:08<br><b>=C3=80 :</b> <a = href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" = target=3D"_blank">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a><br><b>Objet :</b> = Re: [AUDITORY] Quality of discourse [was: Silence from leaders in = auditory science]</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><= /o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Hi = Brian<br><br>Thanks for this excellent post. It mirrors my sentiments = very closely.<br><br>For what it's worth, the abysmal plight of early = career researchers and continued tacit institutional endorsement of = publish or perish culture are much more pressing concerns if politics = absolutely have to be discussed.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><= /o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Doug<o:p></o= :p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><= /o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Wed, 9 = Apr 2025 at 00:37, Brian FG Katz <<a = href=3D"mailto:brian.katz@xxxxxxxx" = target=3D"_blank">brian.katz@xxxxxxxx</a>> = wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote = style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm = 0cm = 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5= .0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor = rgb(204,204,204)'><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Dear all = (who are still members of this list), <o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><= /o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I would = like to say a few words, which are something of a paraphrasing of things = said in previous threads over the years for the same reason. = <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><= /o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>This email = list is an international community in auditory science in the largest = sense of the term. While there are events and questions of = national/regional interest that occur around the world, it behoves list = members to remember that fact. While the situation in the USA at present = is =E2=80=9Cdifficult=E2=80=9D (understatement), and those not in the = USA feel empathy for our colleagues, and may have certain stronger feels = toward the political decisions being made, they nevertheless remain = political decisions for which the international community are but = observers, without a vote.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><= /o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I, for = example, would not bring to this list a discussion on issues currently = being debated in France where large amounts of national funding would be = reserved for specific allocation to =E2=80=9Ckeylabs=E2=80=9D, that is = labs which are designated as the most funded, most prolific (i.e. give = those with money more money because they are doing something = =E2=80=9Cright=E2=80=9D), something which puts all other researchers in = the field at a disadvantage. It is a fight we are having, but this list = is not the forum, despite the numerous French researchers on the list, = other than to inform list members in other countries of how things are = evolving elsewhere. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><= /o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Several = mentions have already been made of opportunities open to welcome = researchers in other countries, to help those who are so adventurous as = to leave the USA. This is a clear action by those countries and senior = scientists in response to the situation within their power, far from = silence. International participation in the =E2=80=9CStand Up for = Science=E2=80=9D movement in strong support of our American based = colleagues is another example of such empathy. I, myself, left the USA = 25 years ago as there was little hope already at that time in obtaining = funding in the areas of research that interested me. = <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><= /o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Mention has = also been made of using better avenues for action and national related = discussions. There are no doubt numerous national societies associated = with various disciplines of list members where more directed discussions = would seem more appropriate. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><= /o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>So, in = summary, the calls to =E2=80=9CMove On=E2=80=9D are not to disrespect = the importance of the issue raised to those involved, but to highlight = that this is probably not the audience for =E2=80=9Clocal=E2=80=9D = political discussions, unless the intention is to alienate those from = outside. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><= /o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>And with = that, I will end my 2-cents worth.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><= /o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>-Brian<o:p><= /o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'>--</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Brian FG Katz, Research Director, = CNRS</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span = lang=3DFR style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Groupe Lutheries - = Acoustique =E2=80=93 Musique</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span = lang=3DFR style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Sorbonne = Universit=C3=A9, CNRS, UMR 7190, Institut Jean Le Rond = =E2=88=82'Alembert </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span = lang=3DFR style=3D'color:#1F497D'><a = href=3D"http://www.dalembert.upmc.fr/home/katz" = target=3D"_blank">http://www.dalembert.upmc.fr/home/katz</a></span><o:p><= /o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span = lang=3DFR> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote></di= v></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></body></html> ------=_NextPart_000_019A_01DBAC5F.498D01D0--