Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Frequency + Political Acoustics From: Douglas Scott <jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2025 17:12:33 -0400--000000000000017baa06329c21d4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dick I would have thought the opposite: Pitch isn't usually perceived as a frequency in the sense of a rate of repetition, but rather as a semiotic First (i.e. a direct perception). This would be analogous to the way colour is perceived versus the frequency of the light that produces the sensation, which is even more imperceptible directly. This is how one can "spoof" perceptual organs with false colour and reconstruct missing fundamentals. The Fourier transform, meanwhile, is explicitly about repetition of the circular motion of various types of circles. It is thus inherently a semiotic Second, while assigning a pitch name or class would be a Third. Of course, these concepts are fluid, so constructing an interpretation in your terms is also entirely possible, but I don't think it's the default way of seeing it. Perhaps I'm biased. Doug On Sat, 12 Apr 2025 at 01:31, Richard F. Lyon < 0000030301ff4bce-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > Adam, > > Thanks for bringing us back to topics more germane to the list. (While I > agree there's a lot that needs to be discussed about the current state of > craziness in the U.S., I also agree that this list is probably not so gre= at > a place to take that on. I realize I'm speaking from a position of > almost-retired and already signed up for Social Security, so not as much > affected as many. When I was out on the "Hands Off" protest march, > Auditory was not on my mind.) > > I took a glance at your paper, and it looks to me like you didn't do a > clear enough job of distinguishing different notions of frequency (maybe = I > need to read more). Pitch, though a perceptual concept, is very closely > related to the concept of frequency as repetition rate. In physics and > math, however, frequency is often thought of as a parameter of a Fourier > transform, more related to sinusoids, or circular motion, than to > repetition. Your paper barely mentions pitch, but I think it's a concept > that might help make some of your points better. I look forward to readi= ng > more of it. > > Dick > > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2025 at 9:31=E2=80=AFPM Adam Weisser <adam_weisser@xxxxxxxx= il.fm> > wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> I would like to share with you my latest piece on the topic of frequency= . >> While it is not strictly within auditory science, this work would have >> never materialized if it weren't for the deeply-ingrained approach to >> acoustic signals that has time and frequency as more or less independent >> dimensions - two attributes of sound that are interrelated, but which we >> generally perceive as essentially different. Contrasting this understand= ing >> with the fundamental definition of frequency in physics - the reciprocal= of >> the period - leaves much to be elucidated and is duly riddled with >> paradoxes. >> >> In this manuscript, I review the different instantiations of the concept >> of frequency in physics, engineering, mathematics, and perception, >> partially tracing their historical evolution, in attempt to answer the >> question of whether frequency can be counted as a separate dimension of >> reality, in addition to space and time. The resolution ties together tim= e, >> frequency, and determinism in a highly counterintuitive manner: >> >> https://zenodo.org/records/15162477 >> >> While I have no illusions regarding how this text (and its author) may >> come across given the extraordinary claims put forth, I have tried to go >> about it in the most rigorous way I could, while methodically scrutinizi= ng >> some long-held dogmas in the sciences, in hope of sparking further >> discussion, somewhere down the road. >> >> For what it's worth, I'm indebted to what I have learned (or maybe, >> mislearned) by virtue of being part of the auditory community. Yet, thes= e >> days appear to be challenging to many members of the Auditory List. I on= ce >> had a good colleague (PKR) who lamented how we were never trained in >> "political acoustics" in engineering school, that would have endowed us >> with the necessary skill set to be able to juggle between the various >> demands of our whimsical bosses. Even today, still nobody teaches this >> subject, and people are expected to figure out this vital skill as they = go >> along, while trying to survive and stay true to what they were originall= y >> hired to do. It's perhaps ironic, because in every other respect, hearin= g >> science must be one of the most unifying and all-encompassing of all hum= an >> endeavors, being positioned in the nexus between physics, biology, >> psychology, neuroscience, perception, communication, language, music, >> engineering, medicine, environment, architecture, computer science, >> mathematics, and many other disciplines. All this is in opposition to >> politics, which usually excels in sowing division, whether we are ready = to >> get directly involved with it or not. >> >> I hope that we can transcend these unpleasant times both as individuals >> and as a community and eventually get back to what we do best, which is >> study hearing and sound. >> >> With wishes for better times to come, >> And thank you for your attention and time, >> Adam. >> > --000000000000017baa06329c21d4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Dick<div><br></div><div>I would have thought the opposi= te: Pitch isn't usually perceived as a frequency in the sense of a rate= of repetition, but rather as a semiotic First (i.e. a direct perception). = This would be analogous to the way colour is perceived versus the frequency= of the light that produces the sensation,=C2=A0which is even more impercep= tible directly. This is how one can "spoof" perceptual organs wit= h false colour and reconstruct missing fundamentals.</div><div><br></div><d= iv>The Fourier transform, meanwhile, is explicitly about repetition of the = circular motion of various types of circles. It is thus inherently a semiot= ic Second, while assigning a pitch name or class would be a Third.</div><di= v><br></div><div>Of course, these concepts are fluid, so constructing an in= terpretation in your terms is also entirely possible, but I don't think= it's the default way of seeing it. Perhaps I'm biased.<br></div><d= iv><br></div><div>Doug</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote= _container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, 12 Apr 2025 at 01= :31, Richard F. Lyon <<a href=3D"mailto:0000030301ff4bce-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx= ists.mcgill.ca">0000030301ff4bce-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrot= e:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0= .8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"l= tr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Adam,</div><div = class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"g= mail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Thanks=C2=A0for bringing us back to= topics more germane to the list.=C2=A0 (While I agree there's a lot th= at needs to be discussed about the current state of craziness in the U.S., = I also agree that this list is probably not so great a place to take that o= n.=C2=A0 I realize I'm speaking from a position of almost-retired and a= lready signed up for Social Security, so not as much affected as many.=C2= =A0 When I was out on the "Hands Off" protest march, Auditory was= not on my mind.)</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:smal= l"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">I took = a glance at your paper, and it looks to me like you didn't do a clear e= nough job of distinguishing different notions of frequency=C2=A0(maybe I ne= ed to read more).=C2=A0 Pitch, though a perceptual concept, is very closely= related to the concept of frequency as repetition rate.=C2=A0 In physics a= nd math, however, frequency is often thought of as a parameter of a Fourier= transform, more related to sinusoids, or circular motion, than to repetiti= on.=C2=A0 Your paper barely mentions pitch, but I think it's a concept = that might help make some of your points better.=C2=A0 I look forward to re= ading more of it.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:smal= l"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Dick</d= iv><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div></div><= br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri,= Apr 11, 2025 at 9:31=E2=80=AFPM Adam Weisser <<a href=3D"mailto:adam_we= isser@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">adam_weisser@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote= :<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.= 8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><u></u><d= iv><div style=3D"font-family:Arial">Dear all,</div><div style=3D"font-famil= y:Arial"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial">I would like to share w= ith you my latest piece on the topic of frequency. While it is not strictly= within auditory science, this work would have never materialized if it wer= en't for the deeply-ingrained approach to acoustic signals that has tim= e and frequency as more or less independent dimensions - two attributes of = sound that are interrelated, but which we generally perceive as essentially= different. Contrasting this understanding with the fundamental definition = of frequency in physics - the reciprocal of the period=C2=A0 - leaves much = to be elucidated and is duly riddled with paradoxes.</div><div style=3D"fon= t-family:Arial"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial">In this manuscri= pt, I review the different instantiations of the concept of frequency in ph= ysics, engineering, mathematics, and perception, partially tracing their hi= storical evolution, in attempt to answer the question of whether frequency = can be counted as a separate dimension of reality, in addition to space and= time. The resolution ties together time, frequency, and determinism in a h= ighly counterintuitive manner:</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial"><br></= div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial"><a href=3D"https://zenodo.org/records/= 15162477" target=3D"_blank">https://zenodo.org/records/15162477</a></div><d= iv style=3D"font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial">W= hile I have no illusions regarding how this text (and its author) may come = across given the extraordinary claims put forth, I have tried to go about i= t in the most rigorous way I could, while methodically scrutinizing some lo= ng-held dogmas in the sciences, in hope of sparking further discussion, som= ewhere down the road.</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial"><br></div><div = style=3D"font-family:Arial">For what it's worth, I'm indebted to wh= at I have learned (or maybe, mislearned) by virtue of being part of the aud= itory community. Yet, these days appear to be challenging to many members o= f the Auditory List.=C2=A0I once had a good colleague (PKR) who lamented ho= w we were never trained in "political acoustics" in engineering s= chool, that would have endowed us with the necessary skill set to be able t= o juggle between the various demands of our whimsical bosses. Even today, s= till nobody teaches this subject, and people are expected to figure out thi= s vital skill as they go along, while trying to survive and stay true to wh= at they were originally hired to do. It's perhaps ironic, because in ev= ery other respect, hearing science must be one of the most unifying and all= -encompassing of all human endeavors, being positioned in the nexus between= physics, biology, psychology, neuroscience, perception, communication, lan= guage, music, engineering, medicine, environment, architecture, computer sc= ience, mathematics, and many other disciplines. All this is in opposition t= o politics, which=C2=A0usually excels in sowing division, whether we are re= ady to get directly involved with it or not.</div><div style=3D"font-family= :Arial"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial">I hope that we can trans= cend these unpleasant times both as individuals and as a community and even= tually get back to what we do best, which is study hearing and sound.</div>= <div style=3D"font-family:Arial"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial"= >With wishes for better times to come,</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial= ">And thank you for your attention and time,</div><div style=3D"font-family= :Arial">Adam.</div></div></div></blockquote></div> </blockquote></div> --000000000000017baa06329c21d4--