Re: [AUDITORY] Quality of discourse [was: Silence from leaders in auditory science] ("T. T. Perry" )

Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Quality of discourse [was: Silence from leaders in auditory science] From: "T. T. Perry" <trevortperry@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2025 10:24:32 -0700 --00000000000088a1330632981910 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Brian, Thank you for addressing my question so directly. I ask questions when I don't know the answer, and now I have a clearer understanding of what motivates beliefs about Auditory List and why some object to discussion of anti-science attacks by politicians and ideological movements, like anti-vaxxers. To summarize my understanding from reading your emails, it seems that some view such discussion as irrelevant to auditory science due to differences in geography, power, and/or interest among List subscribers. I am left contemplating the way these same differences are ignored when it comes to other topics on the List, but at least the reasons have been enumerated. I personally do not agree with foreclosing the possibility of transnational solidarity among scientists in advance, and in fact because American scientists largely ignored what was happening in Hungary, American scientists now find themselves facing a similar fight at home, unprepared. I'd also like to acknowledge that the threat and scope of the anti-science movement is qualitatively different from debates about relative funding level differences between labs in France, and makes for a poor point of comparison. I have no more questions to ask, as the picture is now clear to me as to why things are the way they are and how we got here. I will instead leave the list with two bits of reading. One is a CNN editorial by Nobel Laureate Dr. Ardem Patapoutian, who points out that his scientific career crosses nation-state boundaries, complicating simple narratives about what's "local" and what's "global" (and highlighting how borders can be weaponized against science, something that will always be invisible in a balkanized framework of scientific collaboration). He says, " These actions against science are indiscriminate and risk doing real, long-lasting harm," and " Now is the time for all of us to speak up" https://www.cnn.com/2025/04/09/health/nobel-laureate-research-funding-patap= outian/index.html I also want to share the advice of Christina Pagel, professor of operational research: "Those of us in the rest of the world also face choices, and history will judge us too on what we decide. First, we must support our US colleagues and their institutions." https://www.bmj.com/content/387/bmj.q2654 Clearly not everyone in academia shares the same narrow vision of what constitutes mutual interest and solidarity between scientists. Sincerely, Perry they/them On Fri, Apr 11, 2025 at 9:22=E2=80=AFPM Brian FG Katz < brian.katz@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > Dear Doug, > > > > Thank you for your remark. To further the point, please let me indulge yo= u > all in one last comment. > > > > While the notion of =E2=80=9Cpublish or perish=E2=80=9D is of conceptual = concern, I would > not consider it the principle concern here in France. Unlike the US, UK, > and some other countries, I am quite pleased that France has not embraced > the strict quantification of publications (journal impact, h-index, etc.) > in career evaluations. > > > > Of much more significant importance in France on early career researchers > (in my opinion) is the severe limitation on consecutive > post-doc/non-tenured contracts due to French employment law, resulting in > many motivated candidates being forced out of French public > research/university and either into the private sector or abroad if they = do > not get a position quickly. The general policy of also not recruiting fro= m > within (not able to get a tenured position where you completed your earli= er > works) means a severe lack of continuity in the knowledge/skill base with= in > a team of small size, while large teams are more robust (i.e. favouring t= he > well-established at the detriment of those emerging). Of course, these > policies and a discussion around them is of little direct relevance to > those outside of France. > > > > This is not to start an open discussion on who has it harder, but simply > to reiterate that much of what we may be frustrated with in our careers, > outside of scientific questions, is still more often than not a **local** > issue, and not necessarily of relevance to an international disciple > discussion. > > > > My 2-cents more. > > > > -Brian > > -- > > Brian FG Katz, Research Director, CNRS > > Groupe Lutheries - Acoustique =E2=80=93 Musique > > Sorbonne Universit=C3=A9, CNRS, UMR 7190, Institut Jean Le Rond =E2=88=82= 'Alembert > > http://www.dalembert.upmc.fr/home/katz > > > > *De :* AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception < > AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> *De la part de* Douglas Scott > *Envoy=C3=A9 :* vendredi 11 avril 2025 05:08 > *=C3=80 :* AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx > *Objet :* Re: [AUDITORY] Quality of discourse [was: Silence from leaders > in auditory science] > > > > Hi Brian > > Thanks for this excellent post. It mirrors my sentiments very closely. > > For what it's worth, the abysmal plight of early career researchers and > continued tacit institutional endorsement of publish or perish culture ar= e > much more pressing concerns if politics absolutely have to be discussed. > > > > Doug > > > > On Wed, 9 Apr 2025 at 00:37, Brian FG Katz < > brian.katz@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > > Dear all (who are still members of this list), > > > > I would like to say a few words, which are something of a paraphrasing of > things said in previous threads over the years for the same reason. > > > > This email list is an international community in auditory science in the > largest sense of the term. While there are events and questions of > national/regional interest that occur around the world, it behoves list > members to remember that fact. While the situation in the USA at present = is > =E2=80=9Cdifficult=E2=80=9D (understatement), and those not in the USA fe= el empathy for our > colleagues, and may have certain stronger feels toward the political > decisions being made, they nevertheless remain political decisions for > which the international community are but observers, without a vote. > > > > I, for example, would not bring to this list a discussion on issues > currently being debated in France where large amounts of national funding > would be reserved for specific allocation to =E2=80=9Ckeylabs=E2=80=9D, t= hat is labs which > are designated as the most funded, most prolific (i.e. give those with > money more money because they are doing something =E2=80=9Cright=E2=80=9D= ), something which > puts all other researchers in the field at a disadvantage. It is a fight = we > are having, but this list is not the forum, despite the numerous French > researchers on the list, other than to inform list members in other > countries of how things are evolving elsewhere. > > > > Several mentions have already been made of opportunities open to welcome > researchers in other countries, to help those who are so adventurous as t= o > leave the USA. This is a clear action by those countries and senior > scientists in response to the situation within their power, far from > silence. International participation in the =E2=80=9CStand Up for Science= =E2=80=9D movement > in strong support of our American based colleagues is another example of > such empathy. I, myself, left the USA 25 years ago as there was little ho= pe > already at that time in obtaining funding in the areas of research that > interested me. > > > > Mention has also been made of using better avenues for action and nationa= l > related discussions. There are no doubt numerous national societies > associated with various disciplines of list members where more directed > discussions would seem more appropriate. > > > > So, in summary, the calls to =E2=80=9CMove On=E2=80=9D are not to disresp= ect the > importance of the issue raised to those involved, but to highlight that > this is probably not the audience for =E2=80=9Clocal=E2=80=9D political d= iscussions, unless > the intention is to alienate those from outside. > > > > And with that, I will end my 2-cents worth. > > > > -Brian > > -- > > Brian FG Katz, Research Director, CNRS > > Groupe Lutheries - Acoustique =E2=80=93 Musique > > Sorbonne Universit=C3=A9, CNRS, UMR 7190, Institut Jean Le Rond =E2=88=82= 'Alembert > > http://www.dalembert.upmc.fr/home/katz > > > > --00000000000088a1330632981910 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Brian,</div><div> </div><div>Thank you for addr= essing my question so directly. I ask questions when I don't know the a= nswer, and now I have a clearer understanding of what motivates beliefs abo= ut Auditory List and why some object to discussion of anti-science attacks = by politicians and ideological movements, like anti-vaxxers. To summarize m= y understanding from reading your emails, it seems that some view such disc= ussion as irrelevant to auditory science due to differences in geography, p= ower, and/or interest among List subscribers. I am left contemplating the w= ay these same differences are ignored when it comes to other topics on the = List, but at least the reasons have been enumerated.</div><div> </div><d= iv>I personally do not agree with foreclosing the possibility of transnatio= nal solidarity among scientists in advance, and in fact because American sc= ientists largely ignored what was happening in Hungary, American scientists= now find themselves facing a similar fight at home, unprepared. I'd al= so like to acknowledge that the threat and scope of the anti-science moveme= nt is qualitatively different from debates about relative funding level dif= ferences between labs in France, and makes for a poor point of comparison.<= /div><div> </div><div>I have no more questions to ask, as the picture is= now clear to me as to why things are the way they are and how we got here.= I will instead leave the list with two bits of reading. One is a CNN edito= rial by Nobel Laureate=20 Dr. Ardem Patapoutian, who points out that his scientific career crosses na= tion-state boundaries, complicating simple narratives about what's &quo= t;local" and what's "global" (and highlighting how borde= rs can be weaponized against science, something that will always be invisib= le in a balkanized framework of scientific collaboration). He says, " These actions against science are indiscriminate and risk doing real, long-= lasting harm," and " Now is the time for all of us to speak up" <a href=3D"https://www.cnn= .com/2025/04/09/health/nobel-laureate-research-funding-patapoutian/index.ht= ml">https://www.cnn.com/2025/04/09/health/nobel-laureate-research-funding-p= atapoutian/index.html</a></div><div> </div><div>I also want to share the= advice of=20 Christina Pagel, professor of operational research: "Those of us in t= he rest of the world also face choices, and history will judge us too on what we decide. First, we must support our US=20 colleagues and their institutions."=20 <a href=3D"https://www.bmj.com/content/387/bmj.q2654">https://www.bmj.com/c= ontent/387/bmj.q2654</a></div><div> </div><div>Clearly not everyone in a= cademia shares the same narrow vision of what constitutes mutual interest a= nd solidarity between scientists.</div><div> </div><div>Sincerely,</div>= <div>Perry</div><div>they/them</div><div> </div></div> <div class=3D"= gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On= Fri, Apr 11, 2025 at 9:22=E2=80=AFPM Brian FG Katz <<a href=3D"mailto:b= rian.katz@xxxxxxxx">brian.katz@xxxxxxxx</a>>= wrote: </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px = 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div cla= ss=3D"msg3281154833863153335"><div lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"overflow-wrap: b= reak-word;"><div class=3D"m_3281154833863153335WordSection1">Dear Doug, <= span>=C2=A0Thank you = for your remark. To further the point, please let me indulge you all in one= last comment. </u= >=C2=A0While the notion of = =E2=80=9Cpublish or perish=E2=80=9D is of conceptual concern, I would not c= onsider it the principle concern here in France. Unlike the US, UK, and som= e other countries, I am quite pleased that France has not embraced the stri= ct quantification of publications (journal impact, h-index, etc.) in career= evaluations.= =C2=A0Of much more significa= nt importance in France on early career researchers (in my opinion) is the = severe limitation on consecutive post-doc/non-tenured contracts due to Fren= ch employment law, resulting in many motivated candidates being forced out = of French public research/university and either into the private sector or = abroad if they do not get a position quickly. The general policy of also no= t recruiting from within (not able to get a tenured position where you comp= leted your earlier works) means a severe lack of continuity in the knowledg= e/skill base within a team of small size, while large teams are more robust= (i.e. favouring the well-established at the detriment of those emerging). = Of course, these policies and a discussion around them is of little direct = relevance to those outside of France. =C2=A0<spa= n>This is not to start an open discussion on who has it harder, but simply = to reiterate that much of what we may be frustrated with in our careers, ou= tside of scientific questions, is still more often than not a *local= * issue, and not necessarily of relevance to an international disciple disc= ussion. =C2=A0= My 2-cents more.</= u>=C2=A0<p= class=3D"MsoNormal">-Brian --Brian FG Katz, Rese= arch Director, CNRSGroupe Lutheries - = Acoustique =E2=80=93 Musique<= /p>Sorbonne Universit=C3=A9, CNRS, UMR 7190, Institut Jean Le R= ond =E2=88=82'Alembert </= p><= a href=3D"http://www.dalembert.upmc.fr/home/katz" target=3D"_blank">http://= www.dalembert.upmc.fr/home/katz</a><= /span>=C2=A0</sp= an><div style=3D"border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none= none;border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor;padding:3pt 0= cm 0cm">De=C2=A0:<sp= an lang=3D"FR"> AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception <<a href=3D"m= ailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx<= /a>> De la part de Douglas Scott Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0: ven= dredi 11 avril 2025 05:08 =C3=80=C2=A0: <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITOR= Y@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a> Obj= et=C2=A0: Re: [AUDITORY] Quality of discourse [was: Silence from leader= s in auditory science]</div>=C2=A0<div>Hi Brian Thanks= for this excellent post. It mirrors my sentiments very closely. For= what it's worth, the abysmal plight of early career researchers and co= ntinued tacit institutional endorsement of publish or perish culture are mu= ch more pressing concerns if politics absolutely have to be discussed.</= u><div>=C2=A0</div><div= >Doug</div></div>=C2=A0<div><div>On Wed, 9 Ap= r 2025 at 00:37, Brian FG Katz <<a href=3D"mailto:brian.katz@xxxxxxxx= iversite.fr" target=3D"_blank">brian.katz@xxxxxxxx</a>> wr= ote:</div><blockquote style=3D"border-width:medium medium= medium 1pt;border-style:none none none solid;border-color:currentcolor cur= rentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left= :4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><div><div>Dear all (wh= o are still members of this list), =C2=A0I would like to say a few w= ords, which are something of a paraphrasing of things said in previous thre= ads over the years for the same reason. =C2=A0This email list is an = international community in auditory science in the largest sense of the ter= m. While there are events and questions of national/regional interest that = occur around the world, it behoves list members to remember that fact. Whil= e the situation in the USA at present is =E2=80=9Cdifficult=E2=80=9D (under= statement), and those not in the USA feel empathy for our colleagues, and m= ay have certain stronger feels toward the political decisions being made, t= hey nevertheless remain political decisions for which the international com= munity are but observers, without a vote.=C2=A0I, for example, would= not bring to this list a discussion on issues currently being debated in F= rance where large amounts of national funding would be reserved for specifi= c allocation to =E2=80=9Ckeylabs=E2=80=9D, that is labs which are designate= d as the most funded, most prolific (i.e. give those with money more money = because they are doing something =E2=80=9Cright=E2=80=9D), something which = puts all other researchers in the field at a disadvantage. It is a fight we= are having, but this list is not the forum, despite the numerous French re= searchers on the list, other than to inform list members in other countries= of how things are evolving elsewhere. =C2=A0Several mentions have a= lready been made of opportunities open to welcome researchers in other coun= tries, to help those who are so adventurous as to leave the USA. This is a = clear action by those countries and senior scientists in response to the si= tuation within their power, far from silence. International participation i= n the =E2=80=9CStand Up for Science=E2=80=9D movement in strong support of = our American based colleagues is another example of such empathy. I, myself= , left the USA 25 years ago as there was little hope already at that time i= n obtaining funding in the areas of research that interested me. =C2=A0<= /u>=C2=A0Mention has also been made of using better avenues for action and = national related discussions. There are no doubt numerous national societie= s associated with various disciplines of list members where more directed d= iscussions would seem more appropriate. =C2=A0So, in summary, the ca= lls to =E2=80=9CMove On=E2=80=9D are not to disrespect the importance of th= e issue raised to those involved, but to highlight that this is probably no= t the audience for =E2=80=9Clocal=E2=80=9D political discussions, unless th= e intention is to alienate those from outside. =C2=A0And with that= , I will end my 2-cents worth.=C2= =A0-Brian--</u= >Brian FG K= atz, Research Director, CNRSGroupe Lut= heries - Acoustique =E2=80=93 MusiqueS= orbonne Universit=C3=A9, CNRS, UMR 7190, Institut Jean Le Rond =E2=88=82&#3= 9;Alembert <a href=3D"http://www.dalembert.upmc.fr/ho= me/katz" target=3D"_blank">http://www.dalembert.upmc.fr/home/katz</a></span= >=C2=A0<u= ></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></bl= ockquote></div> --00000000000088a1330632981910--

This message came from the mail archive
postings/2025/
maintained by:

DAn Ellis <dpwe@ee.columbia.edu>
Electrical Engineering Dept., Columbia University