Re: [AUDITORY] Quality of discourse [was: Silence from leaders in auditory science] (Brian FG Katz )

Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Quality of discourse [was: Silence from leaders in auditory science] From: Brian FG Katz <brian.katz@xxxxxxxx> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2025 10:29:20 +0200 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_012D_01DBAACC.9632BF00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Doug,=20 =20 Thank you for your remark. To further the point, please let me indulge = you all in one last comment.=20 =20 While the notion of =E2=80=9Cpublish or perish=E2=80=9D is of conceptual = concern, I would not consider it the principle concern here in France. = Unlike the US, UK, and some other countries, I am quite pleased that = France has not embraced the strict quantification of publications = (journal impact, h-index, etc.) in career evaluations. =20 Of much more significant importance in France on early career = researchers (in my opinion) is the severe limitation on consecutive = post-doc/non-tenured contracts due to French employment law, resulting = in many motivated candidates being forced out of French public = research/university and either into the private sector or abroad if they = do not get a position quickly. The general policy of also not recruiting = from within (not able to get a tenured position where you completed your = earlier works) means a severe lack of continuity in the knowledge/skill = base within a team of small size, while large teams are more robust = (i.e. favouring the well-established at the detriment of those = emerging). Of course, these policies and a discussion around them is of = little direct relevance to those outside of France.=20 =20 This is not to start an open discussion on who has it harder, but simply = to reiterate that much of what we may be frustrated with in our careers, = outside of scientific questions, is still more often than not a *local* = issue, and not necessarily of relevance to an international disciple = discussion.=20 =20 My 2-cents more. =20 -Brian=20 -- Brian FG Katz, Research Director, CNRS Groupe Lutheries - Acoustique =E2=80=93 Musique Sorbonne Universit=C3=A9, CNRS, UMR 7190, Institut Jean Le Rond = =E2=88=82'Alembert=20 http://www.dalembert.upmc.fr/home/katz =20 De : AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception = <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> De la part de Douglas Scott Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 11 avril 2025 05:08 =C3=80 : AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx Objet : Re: [AUDITORY] Quality of discourse [was: Silence from leaders = in auditory science] =20 Hi Brian Thanks for this excellent post. It mirrors my sentiments very closely. For what it's worth, the abysmal plight of early career researchers and = continued tacit institutional endorsement of publish or perish culture = are much more pressing concerns if politics absolutely have to be = discussed. =20 Doug =20 On Wed, 9 Apr 2025 at 00:37, Brian FG Katz = <brian.katz@xxxxxxxx = <mailto:brian.katz@xxxxxxxx> > wrote: Dear all (who are still members of this list),=20 =20 I would like to say a few words, which are something of a paraphrasing = of things said in previous threads over the years for the same reason.=20 =20 This email list is an international community in auditory science in the = largest sense of the term. While there are events and questions of = national/regional interest that occur around the world, it behoves list = members to remember that fact. While the situation in the USA at present = is =E2=80=9Cdifficult=E2=80=9D (understatement), and those not in the = USA feel empathy for our colleagues, and may have certain stronger feels = toward the political decisions being made, they nevertheless remain = political decisions for which the international community are but = observers, without a vote. =20 I, for example, would not bring to this list a discussion on issues = currently being debated in France where large amounts of national = funding would be reserved for specific allocation to = =E2=80=9Ckeylabs=E2=80=9D, that is labs which are designated as the most = funded, most prolific (i.e. give those with money more money because = they are doing something =E2=80=9Cright=E2=80=9D), something which puts = all other researchers in the field at a disadvantage. It is a fight we = are having, but this list is not the forum, despite the numerous French = researchers on the list, other than to inform list members in other = countries of how things are evolving elsewhere.=20 =20 Several mentions have already been made of opportunities open to welcome = researchers in other countries, to help those who are so adventurous as = to leave the USA. This is a clear action by those countries and senior = scientists in response to the situation within their power, far from = silence. International participation in the =E2=80=9CStand Up for = Science=E2=80=9D movement in strong support of our American based = colleagues is another example of such empathy. I, myself, left the USA = 25 years ago as there was little hope already at that time in obtaining = funding in the areas of research that interested me. =20 =20 Mention has also been made of using better avenues for action and = national related discussions. There are no doubt numerous national = societies associated with various disciplines of list members where more = directed discussions would seem more appropriate.=20 =20 So, in summary, the calls to =E2=80=9CMove On=E2=80=9D are not to = disrespect the importance of the issue raised to those involved, but to = highlight that this is probably not the audience for = =E2=80=9Clocal=E2=80=9D political discussions, unless the intention is = to alienate those from outside.=20 =20 And with that, I will end my 2-cents worth. =20 -Brian -- Brian FG Katz, Research Director, CNRS Groupe Lutheries - Acoustique =E2=80=93 Musique Sorbonne Universit=C3=A9, CNRS, UMR 7190, Institut Jean Le Rond = =E2=88=82'Alembert=20 http://www.dalembert.upmc.fr/home/katz =20 ------=_NextPart_000_012D_01DBAACC.9632BF00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta = http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><meta = name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered = medium)"><style></style></head><body lang=3DEN-GB link=3Dblue = vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div = class=3DWordSection1>Dear Doug, <o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>Thank you = for your remark. To further the point, please let me indulge you all in = one last comment. <o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>While the = notion of =E2=80=9Cpublish or perish=E2=80=9D is of conceptual concern, = I would not consider it the principle concern here in France. Unlike the = US, UK, and some other countries, I am quite pleased that France has not = embraced the strict quantification of publications (journal impact, = h-index, etc.) in career evaluations.<o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>Of much = more significant importance in France on early career researchers (in my = opinion) is the severe limitation on consecutive post-doc/non-tenured = contracts due to French employment law, resulting in many motivated = candidates being forced out of French public research/university and = either into the private sector or abroad if they do not get a position = quickly. The general policy of also not recruiting from within (not able = to get a tenured position where you completed your earlier works) means = a severe lack of continuity in the knowledge/skill base within a team of = small size, while large teams are more robust (i.e. favouring the = well-established at the detriment of those emerging). Of course, these = policies and a discussion around them is of little direct relevance to = those outside of France. <o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>This is not = to start an open discussion on who has it harder, but simply to = reiterate that much of what we may be frustrated with in our careers, = outside of scientific questions, is still more often than not a = *local* issue, and not necessarily of relevance to an = international disciple discussion. <o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>My 2-cents = more.<o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>-Brian = <o:p></o:p>--<o:p></o:p>Brian FG Katz, Research = Director, CNRS<o:p></o:p>Groupe Lutheries - Acoustique = =E2=80=93 Musique<o:p></o:p>Sorbonne Universit=C3=A9, CNRS, = UMR 7190, Institut Jean Le Rond =E2=88=82'Alembert <o:p></o:p><a = href=3D"http://www.dalembert.upmc.fr/home/katz">http://www.dalembert.upmc= .fr/home/katz</a><o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p><div = style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm = 0cm 0cm'>De : AUDITORY - Research in = Auditory Perception <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> De la part = de Douglas Scott Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 11 avril 2025 = 05:08 =C3=80 : = AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx Objet : Re: [AUDITORY] Quality = of discourse [was: Silence from leaders in auditory = science]<o:p></o:p></div><o:p> </o:p><div>Hi = Brian Thanks for this excellent post. It mirrors my sentiments = very closely. For what it's worth, the abysmal plight of early = career researchers and continued tacit institutional endorsement of = publish or perish culture are much more pressing concerns if politics = absolutely have to be discussed.<o:p></o:p><div><o:p> </o:p></div><div>Doug<o:p></o:p></div></div><o:p> </o:p><div><div>On = Wed, 9 Apr 2025 at 00:37, Brian FG Katz <<a = href=3D"mailto:brian.katz@xxxxxxxx">brian.katz@xxxxxxxx= versite.fr</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></div><blockquote = style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm = 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><div>Dear all = (who are still members of this list), <o:p></o:p> <o:p><= /o:p>I would = like to say a few words, which are something of a paraphrasing of things = said in previous threads over the years for the same reason. = <o:p></o:p> <o:p><= /o:p>This email = list is an international community in auditory science in the largest = sense of the term. While there are events and questions of = national/regional interest that occur around the world, it behoves list = members to remember that fact. While the situation in the USA at present = is =E2=80=9Cdifficult=E2=80=9D (understatement), and those not in the = USA feel empathy for our colleagues, and may have certain stronger feels = toward the political decisions being made, they nevertheless remain = political decisions for which the international community are but = observers, without a vote.<o:p></o:p> <o:p><= /o:p>I, for = example, would not bring to this list a discussion on issues currently = being debated in France where large amounts of national funding would be = reserved for specific allocation to =E2=80=9Ckeylabs=E2=80=9D, that is = labs which are designated as the most funded, most prolific (i.e. give = those with money more money because they are doing something = =E2=80=9Cright=E2=80=9D), something which puts all other researchers in = the field at a disadvantage. It is a fight we are having, but this list = is not the forum, despite the numerous French researchers on the list, = other than to inform list members in other countries of how things are = evolving elsewhere. <o:p></o:p> <o:p><= /o:p>Several = mentions have already been made of opportunities open to welcome = researchers in other countries, to help those who are so adventurous as = to leave the USA. This is a clear action by those countries and senior = scientists in response to the situation within their power, far from = silence. International participation in the =E2=80=9CStand Up for = Science=E2=80=9D movement in strong support of our American based = colleagues is another example of such empathy. I, myself, left the USA = 25 years ago as there was little hope already at that time in obtaining = funding in the areas of research that interested me. =  <o:p></o:p> <o:p><= /o:p>Mention has = also been made of using better avenues for action and national related = discussions. There are no doubt numerous national societies associated = with various disciplines of list members where more directed discussions = would seem more appropriate. <o:p></o:p> <o:p><= /o:p>So, in = summary, the calls to =E2=80=9CMove On=E2=80=9D are not to disrespect = the importance of the issue raised to those involved, but to highlight = that this is probably not the audience for =E2=80=9Clocal=E2=80=9D = political discussions, unless the intention is to alienate those from = outside. <o:p></o:p> <o:p><= /o:p>And with = that, I will end my 2-cents worth.<o:p></o:p> <o:p><= /o:p>-Brian<o:p><= /o:p>--<o:p></o:p>Brian FG Katz, Research Director, = CNRS<o:p></o:p>Groupe Lutheries - = Acoustique =E2=80=93 Musique<o:p></o:p>Sorbonne = Universit=C3=A9, CNRS, UMR 7190, Institut Jean Le Rond = =E2=88=82'Alembert <o:p></o:p><a = href=3D"http://www.dalembert.upmc.fr/home/katz" = target=3D"_blank">http://www.dalembert.upmc.fr/home/katz</a><o:p><= /o:p> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote></di= v></div></body></html> ------=_NextPart_000_012D_01DBAACC.9632BF00--

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