Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] [duration & loudness : how to equate (subjectively)] From: Virginie van Wassenhove <virginie.van.wassenhove@xxxxxxxx> Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2025 08:00:00 +0100--000000000000443615062b04335e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear colleagues, Let me first wish you all a happy New Year 2025 in all realms of your life and second, thank you all for your inputs. As inquired by some of you, I list below a summary of some helpful responses I received re. the original duration loudness matching question. The roving approach (a few colleagues advised this in the past) as Dardo Fereiri describes it: "*the way we (and many others) go about avoiding intensity (or perceived loudness) being a cue is to randomize it. We call it roving the stimulus. Basically presenting each stimulus at a random intensity within a certain dB range. The range depends on the amount of stimuli and their similarities, but usually a 10dB range should do the trick."* The subjective matching approach as described by Ken Grant: "*we chose to match each sound sample to a 1000 pure tone. We did this subjectively by letting listeners (in our case, the subject in the study) with a slider that they set. The 1000 Hz tone and sound sample were presented sequentially. **We did this because loudness and timbre are related to each other (eg., which part of the spectrum is contributing most to the perception of loudness). [...] High frequency sounds are perceptually louder than low frequency sounds so the most obvious step is to loudness match before pitch matching."* The modeling approach using Brian Moore's work: https://www.psychol.cam.ac.uk/hearing With best regards, Virginie Virginie van Wassenhove Dir. Cognition & Brain Dynamics <https://brainthemind.com/> CEA/DRF/Joliot/NeuroSpin | INSERM Cognitive Neuroimaging Unit | Univ. Paris-Saclay Co-Direction DIM C- <https://dim-cbrains.fr/fr/home>BRAINS <https://dim-cbrains.fr/fr/home> | Associate Editor, JoCN <https://direct.mit.edu/jocn> *My working hours may not be the same as yours, please respond on your own time!* On Thu, Dec 12, 2024 at 8:11=E2=80=AFAM Virginie van Wassenhove < virginie.van.wassenhove@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > Dear colleagues and auditory experts, > > I am reaching out to the auditory community to evaluate existing methods = / > experimental tricks to equate the loudness of sounds as a function of the= ir > duration. > > Context: in the timing literature, one wants to ensure that participants > use timing and not any other (intensity, loudness, spectral, pitch...) cu= e > to estimate the duration of a stimulus. For this, one conservative > approach is to use an "empty interval", namely a gap in noise for very > short timing, or two transient sounds delimiting silence (aka a time > interval). Alternatively, a "filled duration" (pure tone, noise, etc...) > can be used, risking the use of alternative cues. To use a filled duratio= n, > one must ensure that the loudness of the sound is equal across durations. > > My question to you is: > What is the best and fastest way (from the viewpoint of experimental > implementation) to equalize loudness across auditory stimuli? The range o= f > durations is from 100 ms to 3 s. For other experimental reasons, we'd > prefer a pure tone (440 Hz) over noise. > > I'd welcome your tips, insights or pointers to papers you may have. > > If anyone has a reprint of this one, that would also be great: > Sharon M. Abel; Duration Discrimination of Noise and Tone Bursts. J. > Acoust. Soc. Am. 1 April 1972; 51 (4B): 1219=E2=80=931223. > https://doi.org/10.1121/1.1912963 <https://doi.org/10.1121/1.1912963> > > With best wishes, > Virginie > > > Dir. Cognition & Brain Dynamics <https://brainthemind.com/> > CEA/DRF/Joliot/NeuroSpin | INSERM Cognitive Neuroimaging Unit | Univ. > Paris-Saclay > Co-Direction DIM C- <https://dim-cbrains.fr/fr/home>BRAINS > <https://dim-cbrains.fr/fr/home> | Associate Editor, JoCN > <https://direct.mit.edu/jocn> > *My working hours may not be the same as yours, please respond on your ow= n > time!* > --000000000000443615062b04335e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Dear colleagues,=C2=A0</div><di= v><br></div><div>Let me first wish you all a=C2=A0happy New Year 2025=C2=A0= in all=C2=A0realms of your life and second, thank you all for your inputs.<= /div><div><br></div><div>As inquired by some of you, I list below a summary= of some helpful responses I received re. the original duration loudness ma= tching question.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>The roving approach (a few = colleagues=C2=A0advised this=C2=A0in the past) as Dardo Fereiri describes i= t: "<i>the way we (and many others) go about avoiding intensity (or pe= rceived loudness) being a cue is to randomize it.=C2=A0We call it roving th= e stimulus. Basically presenting each stimulus at a random intensity within= a certain dB range. The range depends on the amount of stimuli and their s= imilarities, but usually a 10dB range should do the trick."</i></div><= div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default">The subjective matching app= roach as described by Ken Grant: "<i>we chose to match each sound samp= le to a 1000 pure tone. We did this subjectively by letting listeners (in o= ur case, the subject in the study) with a slider that they set. The 1000 Hz= tone and sound sample were presented sequentially.=C2=A0=C2=A0</i><i>We di= d this because loudness and timbre are related to each other (eg., which pa= rt of the spectrum is contributing most to the perception of loudness). [..= .] High frequency sounds are perceptually louder than low frequency=C2=A0so= unds so=C2=A0the most obvious step is to loudness match before pitch matchi= ng."</i></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><div dir=3D"auto"><br= ></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_default">The modeling approach using=C2=A0= Brian Moore's work:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.psychol.cam.ac.uk/heari= ng" id=3D"m_-6587703629835873617LPlnk164672" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"">h= ttps://www.psychol.cam.ac.uk/hearing</a></div><div><br></div></div><div><di= v dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">= <div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div di= r=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"lt= r"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div= >With best regards,=C2=A0</div><div>Virginie</div><div><br></div></div></di= v></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><= /div></div><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail= =3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><font size=3D"1"><font face=3D"arial,= sans-serif"><font color=3D"#000000">Virginie van Wassenhove<br></font><br>= </font></font><font color=3D"#666666"><font style=3D"font-family:arial,sans= -serif;font-size:x-small">Dir.=C2=A0</font><a href=3D"https://brainthemind.= com/" style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:x-small" target=3D"_b= lank">Cognition & Brain Dynamics</a><font style=3D"font-family:arial,sa= ns-serif;font-size:x-small">=C2=A0</font><font size=3D"1"><br></font></font= ><div><font color=3D"#666666"><font size=3D"1"><span style=3D"font-family:a= rial,sans-serif">CEA/DRF/Joliot/NeuroSpin |=C2=A0</span></font><span style= =3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:x-small">INSERM Cognitive Neuroi= maging Unit |=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-= size:x-small">Univ. Paris-Saclay</span></font></div><div><div><font color= =3D"#666666"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:x-small"= >Co-Direction=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://dim-cbrains.fr/fr/home" style= =3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:x-small" target=3D"_blank">DIM C= -</a><a href=3D"https://dim-cbrains.fr/fr/home" style=3D"font-family:arial,= sans-serif;font-size:x-small" target=3D"_blank">BRAINS</a>=C2=A0</font><spa= n style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:x-= small">=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102);font-family:arial= ,sans-serif;font-size:x-small">|=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,1= 02,102);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:x-small">Associate Editor, <= /span><a href=3D"https://direct.mit.edu/jocn" style=3D"font-family:arial,sa= ns-serif;font-size:x-small" target=3D"_blank">JoCN</a></div><div><i><font s= ize=3D"1" color=3D"#666666">My working hours may not be the same as yours, = please respond on your own time!</font></i></div></div></div></div></div></= div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" c= lass=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 12, 2024 at 8:11=E2=80=AFAM Virginie van Wa= ssenhove <<a href=3D"mailto:virginie.van.wassenhove@xxxxxxxx">virginie.= van.wassenhove@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail= _quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204= ,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Dear colleagues and auditory = experts,=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>I am reaching out to the auditory c= ommunity to evaluate existing methods / experimental tricks to equate the l= oudness of sounds as a function of their duration.</div><div><br></div><div= >Context: in the timing literature, one wants to ensure that participants u= se timing and not any other (intensity, loudness, spectral, pitch...) cue t= o estimate the duration of a stimulus.=C2=A0 For this, one conservative app= roach is to use an "empty interval", namely a gap in noise for ve= ry short timing, or two transient=C2=A0sounds delimiting silence (aka a tim= e interval). Alternatively, a "filled duration" (pure tone, noise= , etc...) can be used, risking the use of alternative cues. To use a filled= duration, one must ensure that the loudness of the sound is equal across d= urations.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>My question to you is: <br>What is= the best and fastest way (from the viewpoint of experimental implementatio= n) to equalize loudness across auditory stimuli? The range of durations is = from 100 ms to 3 s. For other experimental reasons, we'd prefer a pure = tone (440 Hz) over noise.</div><div><br></div><div>I'd welcome your tip= s, insights or pointers to papers you may have.</div><div><br></div><div>If= anyone has a reprint of this one, that would also be great:=C2=A0</div><di= v>Sharon M. Abel; Duration Discrimination of Noise and Tone Bursts. J. Acou= st. Soc. Am. 1 April 1972; 51 (4B): 1219=E2=80=931223. <a href=3D"https://d= oi.org/10.1121/1.1912963" target=3D"_blank">https://doi.org/10.1121/1.19129= 63=C2=A0</a></div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-= family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">With best wishes,</span></div><div><span= style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Virginie= </span></div><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"lt= r"><div><div><br></div></div><font size=3D"1"><font face=3D"arial, sans-ser= if"><br></font></font><font color=3D"#666666"><font style=3D"font-family:ar= ial,sans-serif;font-size:x-small">Dir.=C2=A0</font><a href=3D"https://brain= themind.com/" style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:x-small" targ= et=3D"_blank">Cognition & Brain Dynamics</a><font style=3D"font-family:= arial,sans-serif;font-size:x-small">=C2=A0</font><font size=3D"1"><br></fon= t></font><div><font color=3D"#666666"><font size=3D"1"><span style=3D"font-= family:arial,sans-serif">CEA/DRF/Joliot/NeuroSpin |=C2=A0</span></font><spa= n style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:x-small">INSERM Cognitive= Neuroimaging Unit |=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-seri= f;font-size:x-small">Univ. Paris-Saclay</span></font></div><div><div><font = color=3D"#666666"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:x-s= mall">Co-Direction=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://dim-cbrains.fr/fr/home" s= tyle=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:x-small" target=3D"_blank">D= IM C-</a><a href=3D"https://dim-cbrains.fr/fr/home" style=3D"font-family:ar= ial,sans-serif;font-size:x-small" target=3D"_blank">BRAINS</a>=C2=A0</font>= <span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-siz= e:x-small">=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102);font-family:a= rial,sans-serif;font-size:x-small">|=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(1= 02,102,102);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:x-small">Associate Edito= r, </span><a href=3D"https://direct.mit.edu/jocn" style=3D"font-family:aria= l,sans-serif;font-size:x-small" target=3D"_blank">JoCN</a></div><div><i><fo= nt size=3D"1" color=3D"#666666">My working hours may not be the same as you= rs, please respond on your own time!</font></i></div></div></div></div></di= v></div> </blockquote></div> --000000000000443615062b04335e--