Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Silence from leaders in auditory science From: Douglas Scott <jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2025 00:00:05 -0400--00000000000034e0dd0631c48aa4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tobias I really don't want to spam the forum with this discussion, though I always enjoy chewing the fat on things like this personally. I am afraid we are well-beyond testing the patience of other users at this point. But I do want to address what you say, because it is important. For the attribution thing I think who originally said it is an interesting discussion, but a different one from the pertinence of a quote to the sentiment of certain characters like Twain or Churchill. I tend to trust Qu= ote Investigator's <https://quoteinvestigator.com/2016/12/03/misinformed/> analysis on these things if it's something that's in dispute. Just having a variety of sources isn't necessarily enough, because in reality there are multiple conflicting sources of misinformation of all manner of shades and degrees, and no guarantee that anyone even has the correct information or any way to access or evaluate if they did. It's more like constructing a tapestry of beliefs that hold each other accountable in a tensional grid. This is why disputation is so important, because it allows you to expand and further test your "web of belief" (as Quine put it). Which brings us to the present moment: There are deep and abiding problems in academia, and those problems are connected with a civil bureaucracy that every US president (of all parties) has tried to reign in since Clinton at least without success, until now. It was a bubble, like a stock market bubble, that has needed popping for more than a decade at least. The pain that is being felt now is unfortunate, but in direct proportion to the failure of academia to stay faithful to what I believe are its natural enlightenment and liberal ideals. Call me na=C3=AFve, but I don't think par= ty political partisanship has any place in scholarship precisely because it invites catastrophic reckonings of the sort we are seeing now. Doug On Wed, 2 Apr 2025 at 00:24, Teichert, Tobias < 000003ce21b29f12-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > Hi Doug, > > I am glad we agree that the quote is not linked to Twain. No worries, we > all are wrong more often than we would like to... > > Interestingly, the actual quote (which happens to be by Winston Churchill= ) > has a very different, more positive ring to it: "If you don't read the > newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read one newspaper, you're > mis-informed. If you want to be informed, you have to read them all." > > Including the third sentence is critical because it points to a way out o= f > the misinformation dilemma. Obviously the quote, as well as the entire > discussion, is not just about newspapers, but any source of information..= . > > Now, at this point I have to admit that technically speaking, Churchill > never said anything like this (at least as far as I know). But according = to > your argument this does not make it less relevant because (i) somebody > surely did say it (me!), (ii) it is an amusing quip which is apropos to t= he > conversation, and (iii) who is to say that Churchill would have disagreed= ? > He was after all known as a voracious reader of newspapers! > > I am glad to hear that you are following Churchills recommendation by > consuming a wide range of sources across the spectrum. Others on this lis= t > take the same approach. And yet, just because they come to different > conclusions you seem to assume that they must be swimming in a sea of > partisan misinformation. > > Maybe we can come back to the scientific issue at hand. It is normal and > healthy for each new administration to carve out their own funding > priorities. That has always been the case and is easily done by allocatin= g > different amounts of money to be granted over the next four years accordi= ng > to their priorities. For many decades nobody has cried wolf about any > of this. > > The recent precedent of large-scale cancellations of ongoing funding > granted by a previous administration is different and disruptive to the > scientific process that operates at longer time-scales. There is a reason > R01's are 5 years long, and not limited in duration to the administration > under which they were granted. > > If (once?) other administrations escalate this tactic in a tit-for-tat, > the scientific process will suffer even more, as will the mission of the > NIH which is to seek knowledge to enhance health, lengthen life, and redu= ce > illness and disability. > > Cheers, > Tobias > > ------------------------------ > *From:* AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception < > AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> on behalf of Douglas Scott < > jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx> > *Sent:* Saturday, March 29, 2025 10:55 AM > *To:* AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> > *Subject:* Re: [AUDITORY] Silence from leaders in auditory science > > Some people who received this message don't often get email from > jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx Learn why this is important > <https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification> > The snark is completely uncalled for. > > For the record, I wasn't referring to the Cocktail Party Effect, but > rather to Champagne Socialism. This is not intended to be partisan. I'm > certainly not trying to attack one ideology or another here (although I > certainly do get the distinct impression that I am being attacked by a > particular ideology): Any research becomes susceptible once they place > political concerns over scientific concerns. In this case, it is > specifically the phenomenon where well funded researchers choose not to > consider the sources of funding of their research, or the ultimate ethica= l > implications of accepting it, because doing so risks that funding. > > The analogue to the Cocktail Party Effect would be where a researcher > tunes valid sources of information (even from erstwhile political allies) > to focus on a message that elevates their own specialty for short term > gains to their own careers at the risk of damaging scientific integrity a= nd > the trust of the general public in science in the long run. > > I am also fully aware of the political realities connected to funding. > However, what I am advocating against is bringing political discussions > into actual scientific forums. It's one thing to discuss such things at > cocktail parties, Cocktail Party Effect or no. Quite another to bring it > into the lab. > > Doug > > On Sat, 29 Mar 2025 at 00:32, Nathan Barlow <nb.audiology@xxxxxxxx> > wrote: > > Congratulations on the correct mention of The Cocktail Party effect. > > Sadly I was not playing white noise whilst reading your passage from 1940= s > Italy , so was not experiencing said neurological effect when your > conclusion mentioned said Effect. > > Such is life. > > > N. > BSc, PGDip, MSc(SpchSci)(Hons), CoP, MSc(Clinical Audiology)(Soton) > www.eresope.wordpress.com > @xxxxxxxx > > > On Tue, 25 Mar 2025, 04:32 Douglas Scott, <jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx> > wrote: > > Alain > > If you want to talk politics we can do so. > > I understand the apprehension you feel, but have you considered the fact > that it is precisely a result of the low quality of the information on th= e > matter you are consuming? I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm just > pointing out that media organisations take in the same sources of funding > that many researchers have come to rely on for very nefarious purposes fr= om > less than salubrious sources. Otherwise thoughtful and intelligent people > who only dip their toes in the water and react emotionally to an endless > stream of manipulative propaganda are exactly the target market. > > As a general rule, if you are told you should feel bad for holding certai= n > opinions or questioning others, there is a very high chance that you are = a > target of information warfare. Eco's often misunderstood essay on > Ur-Fascism provides a really useful sanity check that is particularly apt > in the present time: > > *"On the morning of July 27, 1943, I was told that, according to radio > reports, fascism had collapsed and Mussolini was under arrest. When my > mother sent me out to buy the newspaper, I saw that the papers at the > nearest newsstand had different titles. Moreover, after seeing the > headlines, I realized that each newspaper said different things. I bought > one of them, blindly, and read a message on the first page signed by five > or six political parties =E2=80=94 among them the Democrazia Cristiana, t= he > Communist Party, the Socialist Party, the Partito d=E2=80=99Azione, and t= he Liberal > Party.* > > *Until then, I had believed that there was a single party in every countr= y > and that in Italy it was the Partito Nazionale Fascista. Now I was > discovering that in my country several parties could exist at the same > time. Since I was a clever boy, I immediately realized that so many parti= es > could not have been born overnight, and they must have existed for some > time as clandestine organizations."* > > I personally find that applying this test to every political panic to be = a > useful balm. > It's a much broader discussion that extends well beyond the current era t= o > larger currents of the global social and economic order basically since > WW2, long-past the point where it should have rightly collapsed. Current > events are the continued unresolved fallout of what happened in 2007. Don= 't > look to journalists, wikipedia (which, on political matters, is just > basically just the opinions of the sponsor of editors' cocktail parties), > or AI (which, on political matters, is basically just repackaged wikipedi= a) > for insight into matters like this. As Mark Twain noted: "If you don't re= ad > the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're > mis-informed". Better to be uninformed, but unfortunately the system has > become so all-pervasive that it is impossible to remain free from its > influence unless you actually devote some serious thought to it. > > Long story short: Science cannot save itself by becoming a cloying > mouthpiece for the local the cocktail party circuit. Those days are, be i= t > fortunately or unfortunately, well passed. > > Doug > > > > On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 at 04:47, Alain de Cheveigne < > alain.de.cheveigne@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > > Scott, > > I followed your advice, and read what you had to say with empathy and an > open mind. Sadly, it does not make good sense. You complain that the lis= t > 'devolves into a political battleground,' but then wade in wholeheartedly= . > You defend a pristine channel of scientific debate, but defend the notion > of science itself being sacrificed to fix the debt. > > As an accomplished engineer, you should feel that something is wrong. For > one thing, the cost of science is a minor factor in the debt. We usually > attend to major factors before minor. For another, science (like other > elements of society funded collectively) creates the platform on which yo= u > and others create wealth. It seems strange that the richest country on th= e > planet suddenly thinks that such basics are not worth paying for. A > reluctance to pay tax is the major factor in the debt. > > An apt metaphor is an apple tree. All we care for is the apples, but we > would not get rid of leaves, branches, roots, soil and water because they > appear wasteful. A tree might benefit from pruning to remove dead wood a= nd > superfluous branches, but you do not go at it with a chainsaw. > > What is happening to the US reminds me of the zombie ants who suddenly > figure that it is a good idea to latch on to a leaf and die. In the ant, > this behavior results from the hijacking of neural circuits that process > information and control action. Those circuits normally ensure > homeostasis, keeping the ant (and its colony and species) alive, much lik= e > the controls of a plane keep it in the air. Hijacking those controls migh= t > allow the hijacker to influence the trajectory to their benefit, at the > expense of the plane and its pilot. > > You single out 'polarization' of the (US) electorate and 'modern media' a= s > causes. Why is it that I, who am not part of that electorate and partake > sparingly of social or even written media, am so apprehensive of the > current trajectory? > > To answer the original question about the 'silence of senior leaders', > those 'leaders' are confused and scared. Confused because their usual > levers of action no longer work and they do they fully understand why and > how to fix them, and scared because of recent examples of retribution and > bullying, in scientific spheres or elsewhere. > > This is why politics might seep into the scientific debate from time to > time. Regrettable? Yes. > > Alain > > > > > > > On 22 Mar 2025, at 17:05, J. Scott Merritt <alsauser@xxxxxxxx> > wrote: > > > > I am saddened to see the Auditory List devolving into a political > battleground. If additional political "discourse" is needed, there is > certainly no shortage of other places on the web where it can be found. > > > > From my perspective, the -central- problem with US politics is the > increasing polarization of the electorate. Gone are the moderate > statesmen/women that seek a fair compromise acceptable to most. I put th= e > blame for this situation firmly at the feet of modern media - where all o= f > the incentives are singularly aligned with increased "engagement" of thei= r > viewers. > > > > Given that view point, I disagree with the premise that each side shoul= d > put as much effort as possible into organizing their resistance and furth= er > arguing their points. Instead, I believe we need more people to listen > carefully, with patience and empathy, to the grievances of all sides in > hopes of finding a middle ground that works for all. > > > > I would venture to say that the majority of the US electorate would > agree that the massive debt that US has run up is a significant problem, > and would further agree that reduced scientific research funding is an > appropriate (albeit small) step to address that problem. As such, it wou= ld > be hard to argue that reduced scientific research funding, by itself, is = an > assault on American democracy. > > > > It can certainly be argued that the methods apparently being used to > reduce funding are crude and not well prioritized, with an emphasis on > haste rather than wisdom. Unfortunately, I fear that this will remain th= e > case while the electorate is so heavily polarized and we careen viciously > to the left or right after each election. > > > > So ... my suggestions is NOT to "put as much effort as possible into > organising resistance to this coup" ... but rather to engage -individuall= y- > with those of differing viewpoints, with patience and empathy, in hopes o= f > reaching a better shared vision and understanding. > > > > > > On Wed, 19 Mar 2025 08:25:25 +0000 > > Petter Kallioinen <000001c5645d28b7-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx> > wrote: > > > >> I am writing from Stockholm following what I take to be the fall of > American democracy. My advice is to not the resist the urgency of this > situation and not hope for the best. What I would suggest is for everyone > to minimize their ordinary work on a stable level and put as much effort = as > possible into organising resistance to this coup. Everyone! > > --00000000000034e0dd0631c48aa4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Tobias<div><br></div><div>I really don't want to sp= am the forum with this discussion, though I always enjoy chewing=C2=A0the f= at on things like this personally. I am afraid we are well-beyond testing t= he patience of other users at this point. But I do want to address=C2=A0wha= t you say, because it is important.</div><div><br></div><div>For the attrib= ution thing I think who originally=C2=A0said it is an interesting discussio= n, but a different one from the pertinence of a quote to the sentiment of c= ertain characters like Twain or Churchill. I tend to trust <a href=3D"https= ://quoteinvestigator.com/2016/12/03/misinformed/">Quote Investigator's<= /a> analysis on these things if it's something that's in dispute.</= div><div><br></div><div>Just having a variety=C2=A0of sources isn't nec= essarily enough, because in reality there are multiple conflicting sources = of misinformation of all manner of shades and degrees, and no guarantee tha= t anyone even has the correct information or any way to access or evaluate = if they did.</div><div><br></div><div>It's more like constructing a tap= estry of beliefs that hold each other accountable in a tensional grid. This= is why disputation is so important, because it allows you to expand and fu= rther test your "web of belief" (as Quine put it).</div><div><br>= </div><div>Which brings us to the present moment: There are deep and abidin= g problems in academia, and those problems are connected with a civil burea= ucracy that every US president (of all parties) has tried to reign in since= Clinton at least without success, until now. It was a bubble, like a stock= market bubble, that has needed popping for more than a decade at least. Th= e pain that is being felt now is unfortunate, but in direct proportion to t= he failure of academia to stay faithful to what I believe are its natural e= nlightenment and liberal ideals. Call me na=C3=AFve, but I don't think = party political partisanship has any place in scholarship precisely because= it invites catastrophic reckonings of the sort we are seeing now.</div><di= v><br></div><div>Doug</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_= container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, 2 Apr 2025 at 00:2= 4, Teichert, Tobias <<a href=3D"mailto:000003ce21b29f12-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx= sts.mcgill.ca">000003ce21b29f12-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote= :<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.= 8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"= msg2157132980404221383"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div style=3D"font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Cali= bri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Hi Doug,</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Cali= bri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Cali= bri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> I am glad we agree that the quote is not linked to Twain. No worries, we al= l are wrong more often than we=C2=A0would like to...=C2=A0</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Cali= bri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Cali= bri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Interestingly, the actual quote (which happens to be by Winston Churchill) = has a very different, more positive ring to it: "If you don't read= the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read one newspaper, you'r= e mis-informed. If you want to be informed, you have to read them all."</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Cali= bri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Cali= bri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Including the third sentence is critical because it points to a way out of = the misinformation dilemma. Obviously the quote, as well as the entire disc= ussion, is not just about newspapers, but any source of information...</div= > <div style=3D"font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Cali= bri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Cali= bri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Now, at this point I have to admit that technically speaking, Churchill nev= er said anything like this (at least as far as I know). But according to yo= ur argument this does not make it less relevant because (i) somebody surely= did say it (me!), (ii) it is an amusing=C2=A0quip which is apropos to the conversation, and (iii) who is t= o say that Churchill would have disagreed? He was after all known as a vora= cious reader of newspapers!=C2=A0</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Cali= bri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Cali= bri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> I am glad to=C2=A0hear that you are following Churchills recommendation by = consuming a wide range of sources across the spectrum. Others on this list = take the same approach. And yet, just because they come to different conclu= sions you seem to assume that they must be swimming in a sea of partisan misinformation.=C2=A0</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Cali= bri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Cali= bri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Maybe we can come back to the scientific issue at hand. It is normal and he= althy for each new administration to carve out their own funding priorities= . That has always been the case and is easily=C2=A0done by allocating diffe= rent amounts of money to be granted over the next four years according to their priorities. For many decades nobody= has cried wolf about any of=C2=A0this.</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Cali= bri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Cali= bri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> The recent precedent of large-scale cancellations of ongoing funding grante= d by a previous administration is different and disruptive to the scientifi= c process that operates at longer time-scales. There is a reason R01's = are 5 years long, and not limited in duration to the administration under which they were granted.</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Cali= bri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Cali= bri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> If (once?)=C2=A0other administrations=C2=A0escalate this tactic in a tit-fo= r-tat, the scientific process will suffer even more, as will the mission of= the NIH which is to seek knowledge to enhance health, lengthen life, and r= educe illness and disability.=C2=A0</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Cali= bri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Cali= bri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Cheers,</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Cali= bri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Tobias</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Cali= bri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div id=3D"m_-5926008645288126210appendonsend"></div> <hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%"> <div id=3D"m_-5926008645288126210divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"C= alibri, sans-serif" style=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b>= AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception <<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= LISTS.MCGILL.CA" target=3D"_blank">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a>> on beha= lf of Douglas Scott <<a href=3D"mailto:jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx" target= =3D"_blank">jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx</a>><br> <b>Sent:</b> Saturday, March 29, 2025 10:55 AM<br> <b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">AU= DITORY@xxxxxxxx</a> <<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" = target=3D"_blank">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a>><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [AUDITORY] Silence from leaders in auditory science</fo= nt> <div>=C2=A0</div> </div> <div> <table border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" width=3D"100%" alig= n=3D"left" style=3D"background:revert;color:revert;direction:revert;font-si= ze:revert;height:revert;letter-spacing:revert;line-height:revert;margin:rev= ert;opacity:revert;outline:revert;overflow:revert;padding:revert;text-align= :revert;text-indent:revert;text-orientation:revert;text-overflow:revert;tex= t-transform:revert;vertical-align:revert;white-space:revert;word-break:reve= rt;word-spacing:revert;writing-mode:revert;zoom:revert;border:0px;display:t= able;width:100%;table-layout:fixed;float:none;border-spacing:0px"> <tbody style=3D"background:revert;border:revert;color:revert;direction:reve= rt;font-size:revert;height:revert;letter-spacing:revert;line-height:revert;= margin:revert;opacity:revert;outline:revert;overflow:revert;padding:revert;= table-layout:revert;text-align:revert;text-indent:revert;text-orientation:r= evert;text-overflow:revert;text-transform:revert;vertical-align:revert;whit= e-space:revert;width:revert;word-break:revert;word-spacing:revert;writing-m= ode:revert;zoom:revert;display:block"> <tr style=3D"background:revert;border:revert;color:revert;direction:revert;= display:revert;font-size:revert;height:revert;letter-spacing:revert;line-he= ight:revert;margin:revert;opacity:revert;outline:revert;overflow:revert;pad= ding:revert;table-layout:revert;text-align:revert;text-indent:revert;text-o= rientation:revert;text-overflow:revert;text-transform:revert;vertical-align= :revert;white-space:revert;width:revert;word-break:revert;word-spacing:reve= rt;writing-mode:revert;zoom:revert"> <td valign=3D"middle" width=3D"1px" bgcolor=3D"#A6A6A6" cellpadding=3D"7px = 2px 7px 2px" style=3D"background-image:revert;background-position:revert;ba= ckground-size:revert;background-repeat:revert;background-origin:revert;back= ground-clip:revert;border:revert;color:revert;direction:revert;display:reve= rt;font-size:revert;height:revert;letter-spacing:revert;line-height:revert;= margin:revert;opacity:revert;outline:revert;overflow:revert;table-layout:re= vert;text-align:revert;text-indent:revert;text-orientation:revert;text-over= flow:revert;text-transform:revert;vertical-align:revert;white-space:revert;= word-break:revert;word-spacing:revert;writing-mode:revert;zoom:revert;paddi= ng:7px 2px;background-color:rgb(166,166,166);width:0px"> </td> <td valign=3D"middle" width=3D"100%" bgcolor=3D"#EAEAEA" cellpadding=3D"7px= 5px 7px 15px" color=3D"#212121" style=3D"background-image:revert;backgroun= d-position:revert;background-size:revert;background-repeat:revert;backgroun= d-origin:revert;background-clip:revert;border:revert;direction:revert;displ= ay:revert;height:revert;letter-spacing:revert;line-height:revert;margin:rev= ert;opacity:revert;outline:revert;overflow:revert;table-layout:revert;text-= indent:revert;text-orientation:revert;text-overflow:revert;text-transform:r= evert;vertical-align:revert;white-space:revert;word-break:revert;word-spaci= ng:revert;writing-mode:revert;zoom:revert;width:100%;background-color:rgb(2= 34,234,234);padding:7px 5px 7px 15px;font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"S= egoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12px;f= ont-weight:normal;color:rgb(33,33,33);text-align:left"> <div style=3D"background:revert;border:revert;color:revert;direction:revert= ;display:revert;font-size:revert;height:revert;letter-spacing:revert;line-h= eight:revert;margin:revert;opacity:revert;outline:revert;overflow:revert;pa= dding:revert;table-layout:revert;text-align:revert;text-indent:revert;text-= orientation:revert;text-overflow:revert;text-transform:revert;vertical-alig= n:revert;white-space:revert;width:revert;word-break:revert;word-spacing:rev= ert;writing-mode:revert;zoom:revert"> Some people who received this message don't often get email from <a hre= f=3D"mailto:jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx= l.com</a>. <a href=3D"https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification" style=3D"backgrou= nd:revert;color:revert;direction:revert;display:revert;font-size:revert;opa= city:revert" target=3D"_blank"> Learn why this is important</a> </div> </td> <td valign=3D"middle" align=3D"left" width=3D"75px" bgcolor=3D"#EAEAEA" cel= lpadding=3D"7px 5px 7px 5px" color=3D"#212121" style=3D"background-image:re= vert;background-position:revert;background-size:revert;background-repeat:re= vert;background-origin:revert;background-clip:revert;border:revert;directio= n:revert;display:revert;height:revert;letter-spacing:revert;line-height:rev= ert;margin:revert;opacity:revert;outline:revert;overflow:revert;table-layou= t:revert;text-indent:revert;text-orientation:revert;text-overflow:revert;te= xt-transform:revert;vertical-align:revert;white-space:revert;word-break:rev= ert;word-spacing:revert;writing-mode:revert;zoom:revert;width:75px;backgrou= nd-color:rgb(234,234,234);padding:7px 5px;font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,&q= uot;Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:1= 2px;font-weight:normal;color:rgb(33,33,33);text-align:left"> </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> <div> <div dir=3D"ltr">The snark is completely uncalled for. <div><br> </div> <div>For the record, I wasn't referring to the Cocktail Party Effect, b= ut rather to Champagne Socialism. This is not intended to be partisan. I= 9;m certainly not trying to attack one ideology or another here (although I= certainly do get the distinct impression that I am being attacked by a particular ideology): Any research becomes s= usceptible once they place political concerns over scientific concerns. In = this case, it is specifically the phenomenon where well funded researchers = choose not to consider the sources of funding of their research, or the ultimate ethical implications of acce= pting it,=C2=A0=C2=A0because doing so risks that funding.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>The analogue to the Cocktail Party Effect would be where a researcher = tunes valid sources of information (even from erstwhile political=C2=A0alli= es) to focus on a message that elevates their own specialty for short term = gains to their own careers at the risk of damaging scientific=C2=A0integrity and the trust of the general public = in=C2=A0science in the long run.</div> <div><br> I am also fully aware of the political realities connected to funding. Howe= ver, what I am advocating against is bringing political discussions into ac= tual scientific forums. It's one thing to discuss such things at cockta= il parties, Cocktail Party Effect or no. Quite another to bring it into the lab.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Doug</div> </div> <br> <div> <div dir=3D"ltr">On Sat, 29 Mar 2025 at 00:32, Nathan Barlow <<a href=3D= "mailto:nb.audiology@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">nb.audiology@xxxxxxxx</a= >> wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204= ,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <div dir=3D"auto"> <div>Congratulations on the correct mention of The Cocktail Party effect.= =C2=A0</div> <div dir=3D"auto"><br> </div> <div dir=3D"auto">Sadly I was not playing white noise whilst reading your p= assage from 1940s Italy , so was not experiencing said neurological effect = when your conclusion mentioned said Effect.=C2=A0</div> <div dir=3D"auto"><br> </div> <div dir=3D"auto">Such is life.=C2=A0</div> <div dir=3D"auto"><br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div> <div dir=3D"ltr">N. <div><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#666666" style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,2= 55,255)">BSc, PGDip, MSc(SpchSci)(Hons), CoP, MSc(Clinical Audiology)(Soton= )</font></div> <div><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font color=3D"#0000= 00"><a href=3D"http://www.eresope.wordpress.com/" target=3D"_blank">www.ere= sope.wordpress.com</a></font></span></div> <div><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">@xxxxxxxx</span></di= v> <div><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br> </span></div> </div> </div> </div> <br> <div> <div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, 25 Mar 2025, 04:32 Douglas Scott, <<a href=3D"m= ailto:jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx<= /a>> wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204= ,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <div dir=3D"ltr">Alain <div><br> </div> <div>If you want to talk politics=C2=A0we can do so.<br> <br> I understand the apprehension you feel, but have you considered the fact th= at it is precisely a result of the low quality of the information on the ma= tter you are consuming? I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm jus= t pointing out that media organisations take in the same sources of funding that many researchers have come to rel= y on for very nefarious purposes from less than salubrious sources. Otherwi= se thoughtful and intelligent people who only dip their toes in the water a= nd react emotionally to an endless stream of manipulative propaganda are exactly the target market.<br> <br> As a general rule, if you are told you should feel bad for holding certain = opinions or questioning others, there is a very high chance that you are a = target of information warfare. Eco's often misunderstood essay on Ur-Fa= scism=C2=A0provides a really useful sanity check that is particularly apt in the present time:=C2=A0</div> <div><i><br> </i></div> <div><i>"<span style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Helvetic= a Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;text-align:justify">= On the morning of July 27, 1943, I was told that, according to radio report= s, fascism had collapsed and Mussolini was under arrest. When my mother sent me out to buy the newspaper, I saw that the pa= pers at the nearest newsstand had different titles. Moreover, after seeing = the headlines, I realized that each newspaper said different things. I boug= ht one of them, blindly, and read a message on the first page signed by five or six political parties =E2=80= =94 among them the Democrazia Cristiana, the Communist Party, the Socialist= Party, the Partito d=E2=80=99Azione, and the Liberal Party.</span></i></di= v> <div> <div style=3D"text-align:justify"><font color=3D"#333333" face=3D"Helvetica= Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:14px"><i><br> </i></span></font></div> <p style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px 0px 10px;text-align:justify;co= lor:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sa= ns-serif;font-size:14px"> <i>Until then, I had believed that there was a single party in every countr= y and that in Italy it was the Partito Nazionale Fascista. Now I was discov= ering that in my country several parties could exist at the same time. Sinc= e I was a clever boy, I immediately realized that so many parties could not have been born overnight, and they= must have existed for some time as clandestine organizations."</i><br= > <br> I personally find that applying this test to every political panic to be a = useful=C2=A0balm.</p> It's a much broader discussion that extends well beyond the current era= to larger currents of the global social and economic order basically since= WW2, long-past the point where it should have rightly collapsed. Current e= vents are the continued=C2=A0unresolved fallout of what happened in 2007. Don't look to journalists, wikipedia (which,= on political matters, is just basically just the opinions of the sponsor o= f editors' cocktail parties), or AI (which, on political matters, is ba= sically just repackaged wikipedia) for insight into matters like this. As Mark Twain noted: "If you don't read t= he newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're = mis-informed". Better to be uninformed, but unfortunately the system h= as become so all-pervasive that it is impossible to remain free from its influence unless you actually devote some serious thought to= it.<br> <br> Long story short: Science cannot save itself by becoming a cloying mouthpie= ce for the local the cocktail party circuit. Those days are, be it fortunat= ely or unfortunately, well passed.<br> <br> Doug<br> <br> <br> </div> </div> <br> <div> <div dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 at 04:47, Alain de Cheveigne <<a hr= ef=3D"mailto:alain.de.cheveigne@xxxxxxxx" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_b= lank">alain.de.cheveigne@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204= ,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> Scott, <br> <br> I followed your advice, and read what you had to say with empathy and an op= en mind.=C2=A0 Sadly, it does not make good sense. You complain that the li= st 'devolves into a political battleground,' but then wade in whole= heartedly. You defend a pristine channel of scientific debate, but defend the notion of science itself being sacrificed to fix th= e debt. <br> <br> As an accomplished engineer, you should feel that something is wrong. For o= ne thing, the cost of science is a minor factor in the debt. We usually att= end to major factors before minor. For another, science (like other element= s of society funded collectively) creates the platform on which you and others create wealth. It seems stran= ge that the richest country on the planet suddenly thinks that such basics = are not worth paying for. A reluctance to pay tax is the major factor in th= e debt.<br> <br> An apt metaphor is an apple tree. All we care for is the apples, but we wou= ld not get rid of leaves, branches, roots, soil and water because they appe= ar wasteful.=C2=A0 A tree might benefit from pruning to remove dead wood an= d superfluous branches, but you do not go at it with a chainsaw.<br> <br> What is happening to the US reminds me of the zombie ants who suddenly figu= re that it is a good idea to latch on to a leaf and die. In the ant, this b= ehavior results from the hijacking of neural circuits that process informat= ion and control action.=C2=A0 Those circuits normally ensure homeostasis, keeping the ant (and its colony and species) = alive, much like the controls of a plane keep it in the air. Hijacking thos= e controls might allow the hijacker to influence the trajectory to their be= nefit, at the expense of the plane and its pilot.=C2=A0 <br> <br> You single out 'polarization' of the (US) electorate and 'moder= n media' as causes. Why is it that I, who am not part of that electorat= e and partake sparingly of social or even written media, am so apprehensive= of the current trajectory?<br> <br> To answer the original question about the 'silence of senior leaders= 9;, those 'leaders' are confused and scared. Confused because their= usual levers of action no longer work and they do they fully understand wh= y and how to fix them, and scared because of recent examples of retribution and bullying, in scientific spheres or elsewhere.<= br> <br> This is why politics might seep into the scientific debate from time to tim= e. Regrettable? Yes.<br> <br> Alain<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> > On 22 Mar 2025, at 17:05, J. Scott Merritt <<a href=3D"mailto:alsau= ser@xxxxxxxx" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">alsauser@xxxxxxxx= T.COM</a>> wrote:<br> > <br> > I am saddened to see the Auditory List devolving into a political batt= leground.=C2=A0 If additional political "discourse" is needed, th= ere is certainly no shortage of other places on the web where it can be fou= nd.<br> > <br> > From my perspective, the -central- problem with US politics is the inc= reasing polarization of the electorate.=C2=A0 Gone are the moderate statesm= en/women that seek a fair compromise acceptable to most.=C2=A0 I put the bl= ame for this situation firmly at the feet of modern media - where all of the incentives are singularly aligned with inc= reased "engagement" of their viewers.<br> > <br> > Given that view point, I disagree with the premise that each side shou= ld put as much effort as possible into organizing their resistance and furt= her arguing their points.=C2=A0 Instead, I believe we need more people to l= isten carefully, with patience and empathy, to the grievances of all sides in hopes of finding a middle ground that wo= rks for all.<br> > <br> > I would venture to say that the majority of the US electorate would ag= ree that the massive debt that US has run up is a significant problem, and = would further agree that reduced scientific research funding is an appropri= ate (albeit small) step to address that problem.=C2=A0 As such, it would be hard to argue that reduced scient= ific research funding, by itself, is an assault on American democracy.<br> > <br> > It can certainly be argued that the methods apparently being used to r= educe funding are crude and not well prioritized, with an emphasis on haste= rather than wisdom.=C2=A0 Unfortunately, I fear that this will remain the = case while the electorate is so heavily polarized and we careen viciously to the left or right after each election= .<br> > <br> > So ... my suggestions is NOT to "put as much effort as possible i= nto organising resistance to this coup" ... but rather to engage -indi= vidually- with those of differing viewpoints, with patience and empathy, in= hopes of reaching a better shared vision and understanding.<br> > <br> > <br> > On Wed, 19 Mar 2025 08:25:25 +0000<br> > Petter Kallioinen <<a href=3D"mailto:000001c5645d28b7-dmarc-request= @xxxxxxxx" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">000001c5645d28b7-dma= rc-request@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br> > <br> >> I am writing from Stockholm following what I take to be the fall o= f American democracy. My advice is to not the resist the urgency of this si= tuation and not hope for the best. What I would suggest is for everyone to = minimize their ordinary work on a stable level and put as much effort as possible into organising resistance to thi= s coup. Everyone!<br> </blockquote> </div> </blockquote> </div> </blockquote> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div></blockquote></div> --00000000000034e0dd0631c48aa4--