Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Silence from leaders in auditory science From: Teichert, Tobias <"Teichert, Tobias"> Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2025 03:57:17 +0000--_000_SN6PR04MB54216B4E7A3D97672FDE8829A9AC2SN6PR04MB5421namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Doug, I am glad we agree that the quote is not linked to Twain. No worries, we al= l are wrong more often than we would like to... Interestingly, the actual quote (which happens to be by Winston Churchill) = has a very different, more positive ring to it: "If you don't read the news= paper, you're uninformed. If you read one newspaper, you're mis-informed. I= f you want to be informed, you have to read them all." Including the third sentence is critical because it points to a way out of = the misinformation dilemma. Obviously the quote, as well as the entire disc= ussion, is not just about newspapers, but any source of information... Now, at this point I have to admit that technically speaking, Churchill nev= er said anything like this (at least as far as I know). But according to yo= ur argument this does not make it less relevant because (i) somebody surely= did say it (me!), (ii) it is an amusing quip which is apropos to the conve= rsation, and (iii) who is to say that Churchill would have disagreed? He wa= s after all known as a voracious reader of newspapers! I am glad to hear that you are following Churchills recommendation by consu= ming a wide range of sources across the spectrum. Others on this list take = the same approach. And yet, just because they come to different conclusions= you seem to assume that they must be swimming in a sea of partisan misinfo= rmation. Maybe we can come back to the scientific issue at hand. It is normal and he= althy for each new administration to carve out their own funding priorities= . That has always been the case and is easily done by allocating different = amounts of money to be granted over the next four years according to their = priorities. For many decades nobody has cried wolf about any of this. The recent precedent of large-scale cancellations of ongoing funding grante= d by a previous administration is different and disruptive to the scientifi= c process that operates at longer time-scales. There is a reason R01's are = 5 years long, and not limited in duration to the administration under which= they were granted. If (once?) other administrations escalate this tactic in a tit-for-tat, the= scientific process will suffer even more, as will the mission of the NIH w= hich is to seek knowledge to enhance health, lengthen life, and reduce illn= ess and disability. Cheers, Tobias ________________________________ From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx>= on behalf of Douglas Scott <jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2025 10:55 AM To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Silence from leaders in auditory science Some people who received this message don't often get email from jdmusictui= tion@xxxxxxxx Learn why this is important<https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSender= Identification> The snark is completely uncalled for. For the record, I wasn't referring to the Cocktail Party Effect, but rather= to Champagne Socialism. This is not intended to be partisan. I'm certainly= not trying to attack one ideology or another here (although I certainly do= get the distinct impression that I am being attacked by a particular ideol= ogy): Any research becomes susceptible once they place political concerns o= ver scientific concerns. In this case, it is specifically the phenomenon wh= ere well funded researchers choose not to consider the sources of funding o= f their research, or the ultimate ethical implications of accepting it, be= cause doing so risks that funding. The analogue to the Cocktail Party Effect would be where a researcher tunes= valid sources of information (even from erstwhile political allies) to foc= us on a message that elevates their own specialty for short term gains to t= heir own careers at the risk of damaging scientific integrity and the trust= of the general public in science in the long run. I am also fully aware of the political realities connected to funding. Howe= ver, what I am advocating against is bringing political discussions into ac= tual scientific forums. It's one thing to discuss such things at cocktail p= arties, Cocktail Party Effect or no. Quite another to bring it into the lab= . Doug On Sat, 29 Mar 2025 at 00:32, Nathan Barlow <nb.audiology@xxxxxxxx<mailto:= nb.audiology@xxxxxxxx>> wrote: Congratulations on the correct mention of The Cocktail Party effect. Sadly I was not playing white noise whilst reading your passage from 1940s = Italy , so was not experiencing said neurological effect when your conclusi= on mentioned said Effect. Such is life. N. BSc, PGDip, MSc(SpchSci)(Hons), CoP, MSc(Clinical Audiology)(Soton) www.eresope.wordpress.com<http://www.eresope.wordpress.com/> @xxxxxxxx On Tue, 25 Mar 2025, 04:32 Douglas Scott, <jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx<mailto:= jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx>> wrote: Alain If you want to talk politics we can do so. I understand the apprehension you feel, but have you considered the fact th= at it is precisely a result of the low quality of the information on the ma= tter you are consuming? I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm just pointi= ng out that media organisations take in the same sources of funding that ma= ny researchers have come to rely on for very nefarious purposes from less t= han salubrious sources. Otherwise thoughtful and intelligent people who onl= y dip their toes in the water and react emotionally to an endless stream of= manipulative propaganda are exactly the target market. As a general rule, if you are told you should feel bad for holding certain = opinions or questioning others, there is a very high chance that you are a = target of information warfare. Eco's often misunderstood essay on Ur-Fascis= m provides a really useful sanity check that is particularly apt in the pre= sent time: "On the morning of July 27, 1943, I was told that, according to radio repor= ts, fascism had collapsed and Mussolini was under arrest. When my mother se= nt me out to buy the newspaper, I saw that the papers at the nearest newsst= and had different titles. Moreover, after seeing the headlines, I realized = that each newspaper said different things. I bought one of them, blindly, a= nd read a message on the first page signed by five or six political parties= =97 among them the Democrazia Cristiana, the Communist Party, the Socialis= t Party, the Partito d=92Azione, and the Liberal Party. Until then, I had believed that there was a single party in every country a= nd that in Italy it was the Partito Nazionale Fascista. Now I was discoveri= ng that in my country several parties could exist at the same time. Since I= was a clever boy, I immediately realized that so many parties could not ha= ve been born overnight, and they must have existed for some time as clandes= tine organizations." I personally find that applying this test to every political panic to be a = useful balm. It's a much broader discussion that extends well beyond the current era to = larger currents of the global social and economic order basically since WW2= , long-past the point where it should have rightly collapsed. Current event= s are the continued unresolved fallout of what happened in 2007. Don't look= to journalists, wikipedia (which, on political matters, is just basically = just the opinions of the sponsor of editors' cocktail parties), or AI (whic= h, on political matters, is basically just repackaged wikipedia) for insigh= t into matters like this. As Mark Twain noted: "If you don't read the newsp= aper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're mis-informed". B= etter to be uninformed, but unfortunately the system has become so all-perv= asive that it is impossible to remain free from its influence unless you ac= tually devote some serious thought to it. Long story short: Science cannot save itself by becoming a cloying mouthpie= ce for the local the cocktail party circuit. Those days are, be it fortunat= ely or unfortunately, well passed. Doug On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 at 04:47, Alain de Cheveigne <alain.de.cheveigne@xxxxxxxx= l.eu<mailto:alain.de.cheveigne@xxxxxxxx>> wrote: Scott, I followed your advice, and read what you had to say with empathy and an op= en mind. Sadly, it does not make good sense. You complain that the list 'd= evolves into a political battleground,' but then wade in wholeheartedly. Yo= u defend a pristine channel of scientific debate, but defend the notion of = science itself being sacrificed to fix the debt. As an accomplished engineer, you should feel that something is wrong. For o= ne thing, the cost of science is a minor factor in the debt. We usually att= end to major factors before minor. For another, science (like other element= s of society funded collectively) creates the platform on which you and oth= ers create wealth. It seems strange that the richest country on the planet = suddenly thinks that such basics are not worth paying for. A reluctance to = pay tax is the major factor in the debt. An apt metaphor is an apple tree. All we care for is the apples, but we wou= ld not get rid of leaves, branches, roots, soil and water because they appe= ar wasteful. A tree might benefit from pruning to remove dead wood and sup= erfluous branches, but you do not go at it with a chainsaw. What is happening to the US reminds me of the zombie ants who suddenly figu= re that it is a good idea to latch on to a leaf and die. In the ant, this b= ehavior results from the hijacking of neural circuits that process informat= ion and control action. Those circuits normally ensure homeostasis, keepin= g the ant (and its colony and species) alive, much like the controls of a p= lane keep it in the air. Hijacking those controls might allow the hijacker = to influence the trajectory to their benefit, at the expense of the plane a= nd its pilot. You single out 'polarization' of the (US) electorate and 'modern media' as = causes. Why is it that I, who am not part of that electorate and partake sp= aringly of social or even written media, am so apprehensive of the current = trajectory? To answer the original question about the 'silence of senior leaders', thos= e 'leaders' are confused and scared. Confused because their usual levers of= action no longer work and they do they fully understand why and how to fix= them, and scared because of recent examples of retribution and bullying, i= n scientific spheres or elsewhere. This is why politics might seep into the scientific debate from time to tim= e. Regrettable? Yes. Alain > On 22 Mar 2025, at 17:05, J. Scott Merritt <alsauser@xxxxxxxx<mailt= o:alsauser@xxxxxxxx>> wrote: > > I am saddened to see the Auditory List devolving into a political battleg= round. If additional political "discourse" is needed, there is certainly n= o shortage of other places on the web where it can be found. > > From my perspective, the -central- problem with US politics is the increa= sing polarization of the electorate. Gone are the moderate statesmen/women= that seek a fair compromise acceptable to most. I put the blame for this = situation firmly at the feet of modern media - where all of the incentives = are singularly aligned with increased "engagement" of their viewers. > > Given that view point, I disagree with the premise that each side should = put as much effort as possible into organizing their resistance and further= arguing their points. Instead, I believe we need more people to listen ca= refully, with patience and empathy, to the grievances of all sides in hopes= of finding a middle ground that works for all. > > I would venture to say that the majority of the US electorate would agree= that the massive debt that US has run up is a significant problem, and wou= ld further agree that reduced scientific research funding is an appropriate= (albeit small) step to address that problem. As such, it would be hard to= argue that reduced scientific research funding, by itself, is an assault o= n American democracy. > > It can certainly be argued that the methods apparently being used to redu= ce funding are crude and not well prioritized, with an emphasis on haste ra= ther than wisdom. Unfortunately, I fear that this will remain the case whi= le the electorate is so heavily polarized and we careen viciously to the le= ft or right after each election. > > So ... my suggestions is NOT to "put as much effort as possible into orga= nising resistance to this coup" ... but rather to engage -individually- wit= h those of differing viewpoints, with patience and empathy, in hopes of rea= ching a better shared vision and understanding. > > > On Wed, 19 Mar 2025 08:25:25 +0000 > Petter Kallioinen <000001c5645d28b7-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx<mailto:= 000001c5645d28b7-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx>> wrote: > >> I am writing from Stockholm following what I take to be the fall of Amer= ican democracy. My advice is to not the resist the urgency of this situatio= n and not hope for the best. What I would suggest is for everyone to minimi= ze their ordinary work on a stable level and put as much effort as possible= into organising resistance to this coup. Everyone! --_000_SN6PR04MB54216B4E7A3D97672FDE8829A9AC2SN6PR04MB5421namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html> <head> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1= 252"> <style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none;"> P {margin-top:0;margin-bo= ttom:0;} </style> </head> <body dir=3D"ltr"> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFo= nt, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Hi Doug,</div> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFo= nt, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFo= nt, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> I am glad we agree that the quote is not linked to Twain. No worries, we al= l are wrong more often than we would like to... </div> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFo= nt, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFo= nt, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Interestingly, the actual quote (which happens to be by Winston Churchill) = has a very different, more positive ring to it: "If you don't read the= newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read one newspaper, you're mis-inform= ed. If you want to be informed, you have to read them all."</div> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFo= nt, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFo= nt, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Including the third sentence is critical because it points to a way out of = the misinformation dilemma. Obviously the quote, as well as the entire disc= ussion, is not just about newspapers, but any source of information...</div= > <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFo= nt, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFo= nt, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Now, at this point I have to admit that technically speaking, Churchill nev= er said anything like this (at least as far as I know). But according to yo= ur argument this does not make it less relevant because (i) somebody surely= did say it (me!), (ii) it is an amusing quip which is apropos to the conversation, and (iii) who is t= o say that Churchill would have disagreed? He was after all known as a vora= cious reader of newspapers! </div> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFo= nt, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFo= nt, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> I am glad to hear that you are following Churchills recommendation by = consuming a wide range of sources across the spectrum. Others on this list = take the same approach. And yet, just because they come to different conclu= sions you seem to assume that they must be swimming in a sea of partisan misinformation. </div> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFo= nt, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFo= nt, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Maybe we can come back to the scientific issue at hand. It is normal and he= althy for each new administration to carve out their own funding priorities= . That has always been the case and is easily done by allocating diffe= rent amounts of money to be granted over the next four years according to their priorities. For many decades nobody= has cried wolf about any of this.</div> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFo= nt, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFo= nt, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> The recent precedent of large-scale cancellations of ongoing funding grante= d by a previous administration is different and disruptive to the scientifi= c process that operates at longer time-scales. There is a reason R01's are = 5 years long, and not limited in duration to the administration under which they were granted.</div> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFo= nt, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFo= nt, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> If (once?) other administrations escalate this tactic in a tit-fo= r-tat, the scientific process will suffer even more, as will the mission of= the NIH which is to seek knowledge to enhance health, lengthen life, and r= educe illness and disability. </div> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFo= nt, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFo= nt, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Cheers,</div> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFo= nt, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Tobias</div> <div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFo= nt, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; c= olor: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <br> </div> <div id=3D"appendonsend"></div> <hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex=3D"-1"> <div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" st= yle=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> AUDITORY - Research i= n Auditory Perception <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> on behalf of Douglas= Scott <jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx><br> <b>Sent:</b> Saturday, March 29, 2025 10:55 AM<br> <b>To:</b> AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [AUDITORY] Silence from leaders in auditory science</fo= nt> <div> </div> </div> <div> <table border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" width=3D"100%" alig= n=3D"left" style=3D"background:revert!important; border:revert!important; b= ottom:revert!important; color:revert!important; direction:revert!important;= display:revert!important; font-size:revert!important; height:revert!import= ant; letter-spacing:revert!important; line-height:revert!important; margin:= revert!important; opacity:revert!important; order:revert!important; outline= :revert!important; overflow:revert!important; padding:revert!important; pos= ition:revert!important; tab-size:revert!important; table-layout:revert!impo= rtant; text-align:revert!important; text-indent:revert!important; text-orie= ntation:revert!important; text-overflow:revert!important; text-transform:re= vert!important; top:revert!important; vertical-align:revert!important; visi= bility:revert!important; white-space:revert!important; width:revert!importa= nt; word-break:revert!important; word-spacing:revert!important; writing-mod= e:revert!important; zoom:revert!important; border:0!important; display:tabl= e!important; width:100%!important; table-layout:fixed!important; 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zoom:revert!important"> <td valign=3D"middle" width=3D"1px" bgcolor=3D"#A6A6A6" cellpadding=3D"7px = 2px 7px 2px" style=3D"background:revert!important; border:revert!important;= bottom:revert!important; color:revert!important; direction:revert!importan= t; display:revert!important; font-size:revert!important; height:revert!impo= rtant; letter-spacing:revert!important; line-height:revert!important; margi= n:revert!important; opacity:revert!important; order:revert!important; outli= ne:revert!important; overflow:revert!important; padding:revert!important; p= osition:revert!important; tab-size:revert!important; table-layout:revert!im= portant; text-align:revert!important; text-indent:revert!important; text-or= ientation:revert!important; text-overflow:revert!important; text-transform:= revert!important; top:revert!important; vertical-align:revert!important; vi= sibility:revert!important; white-space:revert!important; width:revert!impor= tant; word-break:revert!important; word-spacing:revert!important; 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visibility:revert!important; white-space:revert!important= ; width:revert!important; word-break:revert!important; word-spacing:revert!= important; writing-mode:revert!important; zoom:revert!important; width:100%= !important; background-color:#EAEAEA!important; padding:7px 5px 7px 15px!im= portant; font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,Segoe UI,Segoe WP,Tahoma,Arial,sans= -serif!important; font-size:12px!important; font-weight:normal!important; c= olor:#212121!important; text-align:left!important; word-wrap:break-word!imp= ortant"> <div style=3D"background:revert!important; border:revert!important; bottom:= revert!important; color:revert!important; direction:revert!important; displ= ay:revert!important; font-size:revert!important; height:revert!important; l= etter-spacing:revert!important; line-height:revert!important; margin:revert= !important; opacity:revert!important; order:revert!important; outline:rever= t!important; overflow:revert!important; padding:revert!important; position:= revert!important; tab-size:revert!important; table-layout:revert!important;= text-align:revert!important; text-indent:revert!important; text-orientatio= n:revert!important; text-overflow:revert!important; text-transform:revert!i= mportant; top:revert!important; vertical-align:revert!important; visibility= :revert!important; white-space:revert!important; width:revert!important; wo= rd-break:revert!important; word-spacing:revert!important; writing-mode:reve= rt!important; zoom:revert!important"> Some people who received this message don't often get email from jdmusictui= tion@xxxxxxxx <a href=3D"https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification" style=3D"backgrou= nd:revert!important; color:revert!important; direction:revert!important; di= splay:revert!important; font-size:revert!important; opacity:revert!importan= t; visibility:revert!important"> Learn why this is important</a> </div> </td> <td valign=3D"middle" align=3D"left" width=3D"75px" bgcolor=3D"#EAEAEA" cel= lpadding=3D"7px 5px 7px 5px" color=3D"#212121" style=3D"background:revert!i= mportant; border:revert!important; bottom:revert!important; color:revert!im= portant; direction:revert!important; display:revert!important; font-size:re= vert!important; height:revert!important; letter-spacing:revert!important; l= ine-height:revert!important; margin:revert!important; opacity:revert!import= ant; order:revert!important; outline:revert!important; overflow:revert!impo= rtant; padding:revert!important; position:revert!important; tab-size:revert= !important; table-layout:revert!important; text-align:revert!important; tex= t-indent:revert!important; text-orientation:revert!important; text-overflow= :revert!important; text-transform:revert!important; top:revert!important; v= ertical-align:revert!important; visibility:revert!important; white-space:re= vert!important; width:revert!important; word-break:revert!important; word-s= pacing:revert!important; writing-mode:revert!important; zoom:revert!importa= nt; width:75px!important; background-color:#EAEAEA!important; padding:7px 5= px 7px 5px!important; font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,Segoe UI,Segoe WP,Taho= ma,Arial,sans-serif!important; font-size:12px!important; font-weight:normal= !important; color:#212121!important; text-align:left!important; word-wrap:b= reak-word!important"> </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> <div> <div dir=3D"ltr">The snark is completely uncalled for. <div><br> </div> <div>For the record, I wasn't referring to the Cocktail Party Effect, but r= ather to Champagne Socialism. This is not intended to be partisan. I'm cert= ainly not trying to attack one ideology or another here (although I certain= ly do get the distinct impression that I am being attacked by a particular ideology): Any research becomes s= usceptible once they place political concerns over scientific concerns. In = this case, it is specifically the phenomenon where well funded researchers = choose not to consider the sources of funding of their research, or the ultimate ethical implications of acce= pting it, because doing so risks that funding.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>The analogue to the Cocktail Party Effect would be where a researcher = tunes valid sources of information (even from erstwhile political alli= es) to focus on a message that elevates their own specialty for short term = gains to their own careers at the risk of damaging scientific integrity and the trust of the general public = in science in the long run.</div> <div><br> I am also fully aware of the political realities connected to funding. Howe= ver, what I am advocating against is bringing political discussions into ac= tual scientific forums. It's one thing to discuss such things at cocktail p= arties, Cocktail Party Effect or no. Quite another to bring it into the lab.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Doug</div> </div> <br> <div class=3D"x_gmail_quote x_gmail_quote_container"> <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"x_gmail_attr">On Sat, 29 Mar 2025 at 00:32, Natha= n Barlow <<a href=3D"mailto:nb.audiology@xxxxxxxx">nb.audiology@xxxxxxxx= om</a>> wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote class=3D"x_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; bord= er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204); padding-left:1ex"> <div dir=3D"auto"> <div>Congratulations on the correct mention of The Cocktail Party effect.&n= bsp;</div> <div dir=3D"auto"><br> </div> <div dir=3D"auto">Sadly I was not playing white noise whilst reading your p= assage from 1940s Italy , so was not experiencing said neurological effect = when your conclusion mentioned said Effect. </div> <div dir=3D"auto"><br> </div> <div dir=3D"auto">Such is life. </div> <div dir=3D"auto"><br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div> <div dir=3D"ltr">N. <div><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#666666" style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,2= 55,255)">BSc, PGDip, MSc(SpchSci)(Hons), CoP, MSc(Clinical Audiology)(Soton= )</font></div> <div><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font color=3D"#0000= 00"><a href=3D"http://www.eresope.wordpress.com/" originalsrc=3D"http://www= .eresope.wordpress.com/" target=3D"_blank">www.eresope.wordpress.com</a></f= ont></span></div> <div><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">@xxxxxxxx</span></di= v> <div><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br> </span></div> </div> </div> </div> <br> <div class=3D"x_gmail_quote"> <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"x_gmail_attr">On Tue, 25 Mar 2025, 04:32 Douglas = Scott, <<a href=3D"mailto:jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">jd= musictuition@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote class=3D"x_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; bord= er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204); padding-left:1ex"> <div dir=3D"ltr">Alain <div><br> </div> <div>If you want to talk politics we can do so.<br> <br> I understand the apprehension you feel, but have you considered the fact th= at it is precisely a result of the low quality of the information on the ma= tter you are consuming? I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm just pointi= ng out that media organisations take in the same sources of funding that many researchers have come to rel= y on for very nefarious purposes from less than salubrious sources. Otherwi= se thoughtful and intelligent people who only dip their toes in the water a= nd react emotionally to an endless stream of manipulative propaganda are exactly the target market.<br> <br> As a general rule, if you are told you should feel bad for holding certain = opinions or questioning others, there is a very high chance that you are a = target of information warfare. Eco's often misunderstood essay on Ur-Fascis= m provides a really useful sanity check that is particularly apt in the present time: </div> <div><i><br> </i></div> <div><i>"<span style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51); font-family:"Helveti= ca Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size:14px; text-align:justif= y">On the morning of July 27, 1943, I was told that, according to radio rep= orts, fascism had collapsed and Mussolini was under arrest. When my mother sent me out to buy the newspaper, I saw that the pa= pers at the nearest newsstand had different titles. Moreover, after seeing = the headlines, I realized that each newspaper said different things. I boug= ht one of them, blindly, and read a message on the first page signed by five or six political parties =97 am= ong them the Democrazia Cristiana, the Communist Party, the Socialist Party= , the Partito d=92Azione, and the Liberal Party.</span></i></div> <div> <div style=3D"text-align:justify"><font color=3D"#333333" face=3D"Helvetica= Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:14px"><i><br> </i></span></font></div> <p style=3D"box-sizing:border-box; margin:0px 0px 10px; text-align:justify;= color:rgb(51,51,51); font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Aria= l,sans-serif; font-size:14px"> <i>Until then, I had believed that there was a single party in every countr= y and that in Italy it was the Partito Nazionale Fascista. Now I was discov= ering that in my country several parties could exist at the same time. Sinc= e I was a clever boy, I immediately realized that so many parties could not have been born overnight, and they= must have existed for some time as clandestine organizations."</i><br= > <br> I personally find that applying this test to every political panic to be a = useful balm.</p> It's a much broader discussion that extends well beyond the current era to = larger currents of the global social and economic order basically since WW2= , long-past the point where it should have rightly collapsed. Current event= s are the continued unresolved fallout of what happened in 2007. Don't look to journalists, wikipedia (which, on = political matters, is just basically just the opinions of the sponsor of ed= itors' cocktail parties), or AI (which, on political matters, is basically = just repackaged wikipedia) for insight into matters like this. As Mark Twain noted: "If you don't read the n= ewspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're mis-informed= ". Better to be uninformed, but unfortunately the system has become so= all-pervasive that it is impossible to remain free from its influence unless you actually devote some serious thought to= it.<br> <br> Long story short: Science cannot save itself by becoming a cloying mouthpie= ce for the local the cocktail party circuit. Those days are, be it fortunat= ely or unfortunately, well passed.<br> <br> Doug<br> <br> <br> </div> </div> <br> <div class=3D"x_gmail_quote"> <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"x_gmail_attr">On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 at 04:47, Alain= de Cheveigne <<a href=3D"mailto:alain.de.cheveigne@xxxxxxxx" rel=3D"n= oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">alain.de.cheveigne@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<b= r> </div> <blockquote class=3D"x_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; bord= er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204); padding-left:1ex"> Scott, <br> <br> I followed your advice, and read what you had to say with empathy and an op= en mind. Sadly, it does not make good sense. You complain that the li= st 'devolves into a political battleground,' but then wade in wholeheartedl= y. You defend a pristine channel of scientific debate, but defend the notion of science itself being sacrificed to fix th= e debt. <br> <br> As an accomplished engineer, you should feel that something is wrong. For o= ne thing, the cost of science is a minor factor in the debt. We usually att= end to major factors before minor. For another, science (like other element= s of society funded collectively) creates the platform on which you and others create wealth. It seems stran= ge that the richest country on the planet suddenly thinks that such basics = are not worth paying for. A reluctance to pay tax is the major factor in th= e debt.<br> <br> An apt metaphor is an apple tree. All we care for is the apples, but we wou= ld not get rid of leaves, branches, roots, soil and water because they appe= ar wasteful. A tree might benefit from pruning to remove dead wood an= d superfluous branches, but you do not go at it with a chainsaw.<br> <br> What is happening to the US reminds me of the zombie ants who suddenly figu= re that it is a good idea to latch on to a leaf and die. In the ant, this b= ehavior results from the hijacking of neural circuits that process informat= ion and control action. Those circuits normally ensure homeostasis, keeping the ant (and its colony and species) = alive, much like the controls of a plane keep it in the air. Hijacking thos= e controls might allow the hijacker to influence the trajectory to their be= nefit, at the expense of the plane and its pilot. <br> <br> You single out 'polarization' of the (US) electorate and 'modern media' as = causes. Why is it that I, who am not part of that electorate and partake sp= aringly of social or even written media, am so apprehensive of the current = trajectory?<br> <br> To answer the original question about the 'silence of senior leaders', thos= e 'leaders' are confused and scared. Confused because their usual levers of= action no longer work and they do they fully understand why and how to fix= them, and scared because of recent examples of retribution and bullying, in scientific spheres or elsewhere.<= br> <br> This is why politics might seep into the scientific debate from time to tim= e. Regrettable? Yes.<br> <br> Alain<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> > On 22 Mar 2025, at 17:05, J. Scott Merritt <<a href=3D"mailto:alsau= ser@xxxxxxxx" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">alsauser@xxxxxxxx= T.COM</a>> wrote:<br> > <br> > I am saddened to see the Auditory List devolving into a political batt= leground. If additional political "discourse" is needed, th= ere is certainly no shortage of other places on the web where it can be fou= nd.<br> > <br> > From my perspective, the -central- problem with US politics is the inc= reasing polarization of the electorate. Gone are the moderate statesm= en/women that seek a fair compromise acceptable to most. I put the bl= ame for this situation firmly at the feet of modern media - where all of the incentives are singularly aligned with inc= reased "engagement" of their viewers.<br> > <br> > Given that view point, I disagree with the premise that each side shou= ld put as much effort as possible into organizing their resistance and furt= her arguing their points. Instead, I believe we need more people to l= isten carefully, with patience and empathy, to the grievances of all sides in hopes of finding a middle ground that wo= rks for all.<br> > <br> > I would venture to say that the majority of the US electorate would ag= ree that the massive debt that US has run up is a significant problem, and = would further agree that reduced scientific research funding is an appropri= ate (albeit small) step to address that problem. As such, it would be hard to argue that reduced scient= ific research funding, by itself, is an assault on American democracy.<br> > <br> > It can certainly be argued that the methods apparently being used to r= educe funding are crude and not well prioritized, with an emphasis on haste= rather than wisdom. Unfortunately, I fear that this will remain the = case while the electorate is so heavily polarized and we careen viciously to the left or right after each election= .<br> > <br> > So ... my suggestions is NOT to "put as much effort as possible i= nto organising resistance to this coup" ... but rather to engage -indi= vidually- with those of differing viewpoints, with patience and empathy, in= hopes of reaching a better shared vision and understanding.<br> > <br> > <br> > On Wed, 19 Mar 2025 08:25:25 +0000<br> > Petter Kallioinen <<a href=3D"mailto:000001c5645d28b7-dmarc-request= @xxxxxxxx" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">000001c5645d28b7-dma= rc-request@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br> > <br> >> I am writing from Stockholm following what I take to be the fall o= f American democracy. My advice is to not the resist the urgency of this si= tuation and not hope for the best. What I would suggest is for everyone to = minimize their ordinary work on a stable level and put as much effort as possible into organising resistance to thi= s coup. Everyone!<br> </blockquote> </div> </blockquote> </div> </blockquote> </div> </div> </div> </body> </html> --_000_SN6PR04MB54216B4E7A3D97672FDE8829A9AC2SN6PR04MB5421namp_--