Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Silence from leaders in auditory science From: Douglas Scott <jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx> Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2025 19:44:23 -0400--000000000000ea29510631acd974 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Apologies if I misinterpreted. Doug On Mon, 31 Mar 2025 at 00:19, Nathan Barlow <nb.audiology@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > No snark at all intended. Apologies if it came across that way. > > N > > On Sun, 30 Mar 2025, 05:19 Douglas Scott, <jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx> > wrote: > >> The snark is completely uncalled for. >> >> For the record, I wasn't referring to the Cocktail Party Effect, but >> rather to Champagne Socialism. This is not intended to be partisan. I'm >> certainly not trying to attack one ideology or another here (although I >> certainly do get the distinct impression that I am being attacked by a >> particular ideology): Any research becomes susceptible once they place >> political concerns over scientific concerns. In this case, it is >> specifically the phenomenon where well funded researchers choose not to >> consider the sources of funding of their research, or the ultimate ethic= al >> implications of accepting it, because doing so risks that funding. >> >> The analogue to the Cocktail Party Effect would be where a researcher >> tunes valid sources of information (even from erstwhile political allies= ) >> to focus on a message that elevates their own specialty for short term >> gains to their own careers at the risk of damaging scientific integrity = and >> the trust of the general public in science in the long run. >> >> I am also fully aware of the political realities connected to funding. >> However, what I am advocating against is bringing political discussions >> into actual scientific forums. It's one thing to discuss such things at >> cocktail parties, Cocktail Party Effect or no. Quite another to bring it >> into the lab. >> >> Doug >> >> On Sat, 29 Mar 2025 at 00:32, Nathan Barlow <nb.audiology@xxxxxxxx> >> wrote: >> >>> Congratulations on the correct mention of The Cocktail Party effect. >>> >>> Sadly I was not playing white noise whilst reading your passage from >>> 1940s Italy , so was not experiencing said neurological effect when you= r >>> conclusion mentioned said Effect. >>> >>> Such is life. >>> >>> >>> N. >>> BSc, PGDip, MSc(SpchSci)(Hons), CoP, MSc(Clinical Audiology)(Soton) >>> www.eresope.wordpress.com >>> @xxxxxxxx >>> >>> >>> On Tue, 25 Mar 2025, 04:32 Douglas Scott, <jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Alain >>>> >>>> If you want to talk politics we can do so. >>>> >>>> I understand the apprehension you feel, but have you considered the >>>> fact that it is precisely a result of the low quality of the informati= on on >>>> the matter you are consuming? I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm = just >>>> pointing out that media organisations take in the same sources of fund= ing >>>> that many researchers have come to rely on for very nefarious purposes= from >>>> less than salubrious sources. Otherwise thoughtful and intelligent peo= ple >>>> who only dip their toes in the water and react emotionally to an endle= ss >>>> stream of manipulative propaganda are exactly the target market. >>>> >>>> As a general rule, if you are told you should feel bad for holding >>>> certain opinions or questioning others, there is a very high chance th= at >>>> you are a target of information warfare. Eco's often misunderstood ess= ay on >>>> Ur-Fascism provides a really useful sanity check that is particularly = apt >>>> in the present time: >>>> >>>> *"On the morning of July 27, 1943, I was told that, according to radio >>>> reports, fascism had collapsed and Mussolini was under arrest. When my >>>> mother sent me out to buy the newspaper, I saw that the papers at the >>>> nearest newsstand had different titles. Moreover, after seeing the >>>> headlines, I realized that each newspaper said different things. I bou= ght >>>> one of them, blindly, and read a message on the first page signed by f= ive >>>> or six political parties =E2=80=94 among them the Democrazia Cristiana= , the >>>> Communist Party, the Socialist Party, the Partito d=E2=80=99Azione, an= d the Liberal >>>> Party.* >>>> >>>> *Until then, I had believed that there was a single party in every >>>> country and that in Italy it was the Partito Nazionale Fascista. Now I= was >>>> discovering that in my country several parties could exist at the same >>>> time. Since I was a clever boy, I immediately realized that so many pa= rties >>>> could not have been born overnight, and they must have existed for som= e >>>> time as clandestine organizations."* >>>> >>>> I personally find that applying this test to every political panic to >>>> be a useful balm. >>>> It's a much broader discussion that extends well beyond the current er= a >>>> to larger currents of the global social and economic order basically s= ince >>>> WW2, long-past the point where it should have rightly collapsed. Curre= nt >>>> events are the continued unresolved fallout of what happened in 2007. = Don't >>>> look to journalists, wikipedia (which, on political matters, is just >>>> basically just the opinions of the sponsor of editors' cocktail partie= s), >>>> or AI (which, on political matters, is basically just repackaged wikip= edia) >>>> for insight into matters like this. As Mark Twain noted: "If you don't= read >>>> the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're >>>> mis-informed". Better to be uninformed, but unfortunately the system h= as >>>> become so all-pervasive that it is impossible to remain free from its >>>> influence unless you actually devote some serious thought to it. >>>> >>>> Long story short: Science cannot save itself by becoming a cloying >>>> mouthpiece for the local the cocktail party circuit. Those days are, b= e it >>>> fortunately or unfortunately, well passed. >>>> >>>> Doug >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 at 04:47, Alain de Cheveigne < >>>> alain.de.cheveigne@xxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Scott, >>>>> >>>>> I followed your advice, and read what you had to say with empathy and >>>>> an open mind. Sadly, it does not make good sense. You complain that = the >>>>> list 'devolves into a political battleground,' but then wade in >>>>> wholeheartedly. You defend a pristine channel of scientific debate, b= ut >>>>> defend the notion of science itself being sacrificed to fix the debt. >>>>> >>>>> As an accomplished engineer, you should feel that something is wrong. >>>>> For one thing, the cost of science is a minor factor in the debt. We >>>>> usually attend to major factors before minor. For another, science (l= ike >>>>> other elements of society funded collectively) creates the platform o= n >>>>> which you and others create wealth. It seems strange that the richest >>>>> country on the planet suddenly thinks that such basics are not worth = paying >>>>> for. A reluctance to pay tax is the major factor in the debt. >>>>> >>>>> An apt metaphor is an apple tree. All we care for is the apples, but >>>>> we would not get rid of leaves, branches, roots, soil and water becau= se >>>>> they appear wasteful. A tree might benefit from pruning to remove de= ad >>>>> wood and superfluous branches, but you do not go at it with a chainsa= w. >>>>> >>>>> What is happening to the US reminds me of the zombie ants who suddenl= y >>>>> figure that it is a good idea to latch on to a leaf and die. In the a= nt, >>>>> this behavior results from the hijacking of neural circuits that proc= ess >>>>> information and control action. Those circuits normally ensure >>>>> homeostasis, keeping the ant (and its colony and species) alive, much= like >>>>> the controls of a plane keep it in the air. Hijacking those controls = might >>>>> allow the hijacker to influence the trajectory to their benefit, at t= he >>>>> expense of the plane and its pilot. >>>>> >>>>> You single out 'polarization' of the (US) electorate and 'modern >>>>> media' as causes. Why is it that I, who am not part of that electorat= e and >>>>> partake sparingly of social or even written media, am so apprehensive= of >>>>> the current trajectory? >>>>> >>>>> To answer the original question about the 'silence of senior leaders'= , >>>>> those 'leaders' are confused and scared. Confused because their usual >>>>> levers of action no longer work and they do they fully understand why= and >>>>> how to fix them, and scared because of recent examples of retribution= and >>>>> bullying, in scientific spheres or elsewhere. >>>>> >>>>> This is why politics might seep into the scientific debate from time >>>>> to time. Regrettable? Yes. >>>>> >>>>> Alain >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > On 22 Mar 2025, at 17:05, J. Scott Merritt <alsauser@xxxxxxxx= > >>>>> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > I am saddened to see the Auditory List devolving into a political >>>>> battleground. If additional political "discourse" is needed, there i= s >>>>> certainly no shortage of other places on the web where it can be foun= d. >>>>> > >>>>> > From my perspective, the -central- problem with US politics is the >>>>> increasing polarization of the electorate. Gone are the moderate >>>>> statesmen/women that seek a fair compromise acceptable to most. I pu= t the >>>>> blame for this situation firmly at the feet of modern media - where a= ll of >>>>> the incentives are singularly aligned with increased "engagement" of = their >>>>> viewers. >>>>> > >>>>> > Given that view point, I disagree with the premise that each side >>>>> should put as much effort as possible into organizing their resistanc= e and >>>>> further arguing their points. Instead, I believe we need more people= to >>>>> listen carefully, with patience and empathy, to the grievances of all= sides >>>>> in hopes of finding a middle ground that works for all. >>>>> > >>>>> > I would venture to say that the majority of the US electorate would >>>>> agree that the massive debt that US has run up is a significant probl= em, >>>>> and would further agree that reduced scientific research funding is a= n >>>>> appropriate (albeit small) step to address that problem. As such, it= would >>>>> be hard to argue that reduced scientific research funding, by itself,= is an >>>>> assault on American democracy. >>>>> > >>>>> > It can certainly be argued that the methods apparently being used t= o >>>>> reduce funding are crude and not well prioritized, with an emphasis o= n >>>>> haste rather than wisdom. Unfortunately, I fear that this will remai= n the >>>>> case while the electorate is so heavily polarized and we careen vicio= usly >>>>> to the left or right after each election. >>>>> > >>>>> > So ... my suggestions is NOT to "put as much effort as possible int= o >>>>> organising resistance to this coup" ... but rather to engage -individ= ually- >>>>> with those of differing viewpoints, with patience and empathy, in hop= es of >>>>> reaching a better shared vision and understanding. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On Wed, 19 Mar 2025 08:25:25 +0000 >>>>> > Petter Kallioinen <000001c5645d28b7-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> >> I am writing from Stockholm following what I take to be the fall o= f >>>>> American democracy. My advice is to not the resist the urgency of thi= s >>>>> situation and not hope for the best. What I would suggest is for ever= yone >>>>> to minimize their ordinary work on a stable level and put as much eff= ort as >>>>> possible into organising resistance to this coup. Everyone! >>>>> >>>> --000000000000ea29510631acd974 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">Apologies if I misinterpreted.<div><br></div><div>Doug</di= v></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"lt= r" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, 31 Mar 2025 at 00:19, Nathan Barlow <<a = href=3D"mailto:nb.audiology@xxxxxxxx">nb.audiology@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote= :<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.= 8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><p dir=3D"ltr"= >No snark at all intended. Apologies if it came across that way. </p> <p dir=3D"ltr">N</p> <br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun= , 30 Mar 2025, 05:19 Douglas Scott, <<a href=3D"mailto:jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx= ail.com" target=3D"_blank">jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br></div= ><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border= -left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">The sna= rk is completely uncalled for.<div><br></div><div>For the record, I wasn= 9;t referring to the Cocktail Party Effect, but rather to Champagne Sociali= sm. This is not intended to be partisan. I'm certainly not trying to at= tack one ideology or another here (although I certainly do get the distinct= impression that I am being attacked by a particular ideology): Any researc= h becomes susceptible once they place political concerns over scientific co= ncerns. In this case, it is specifically the phenomenon where well funded r= esearchers choose not to consider the sources of funding of their research,= or the ultimate ethical implications of accepting it,=C2=A0=C2=A0because d= oing so risks that funding.</div><div><br></div><div>The analogue to the Co= cktail Party Effect would be where a researcher tunes valid sources of info= rmation (even from erstwhile political=C2=A0allies) to focus on a message t= hat elevates their own specialty for short term gains to their own careers = at the risk of damaging scientific=C2=A0integrity and the trust of the gene= ral public in=C2=A0science in the long run.</div><div><br>I am also fully a= ware of the political realities connected to funding. However, what I am ad= vocating against is bringing political discussions into actual scientific f= orums. It's one thing to discuss such things at cocktail parties, Cockt= ail Party Effect or no. Quite another to bring it into the lab.</div><div><= br></div><div>Doug</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"lt= r" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, 29 Mar 2025 at 00:32, Nathan Barlow <<a = href=3D"mailto:nb.audiology@xxxxxxxx" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"= >nb.audiology@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_= quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,= 204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Congratulations on the correc= t mention of The Cocktail Party effect.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></= div><div dir=3D"auto">Sadly I was not playing white noise whilst reading yo= ur passage from 1940s Italy , so was not experiencing said neurological eff= ect when your conclusion mentioned said Effect.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto= "><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Such is life.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><b= r></div><div><br></div><div><div dir=3D"ltr">N.<div><font size=3D"1" style= =3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" color=3D"#666666">BSc, PGDip, MSc(Sp= chSci)(Hons), CoP, MSc(Clinical Audiology)(Soton)</font></div><div><span st= yle=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font color=3D"#000000"><a href= =3D"http://www.eresope.wordpress.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">= www.eresope.wordpress.com</a></font></span></div><div><span style=3D"backgr= ound-color:rgb(255,255,255)">@xxxxxxxx</span></div><div><span style=3D"back= ground-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></span></div></div></div></div><br><div = class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, 25 Mar = 2025, 04:32 Douglas Scott, <<a href=3D"mailto:jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx" = rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote= :<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.= 8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"lt= r">Alain<div><br></div><div>If you want to talk politics=C2=A0we can do so.= <br><br>I understand the apprehension you feel, but have you considered the= fact that it is precisely a result of the low quality of the information o= n the matter you are consuming? I'm not trying to be condescending, I&#= 39;m just pointing out that media organisations take in the same sources of= funding that many researchers have come to rely on for very nefarious purp= oses from less than salubrious sources. Otherwise thoughtful and intelligen= t people who only dip their toes in the water and react emotionally to an e= ndless stream of manipulative propaganda are exactly the target market.<br>= <br>As a general rule, if you are told you should feel bad for holding cert= ain opinions or questioning others, there is a very high chance that you ar= e a target of information warfare. Eco's often misunderstood essay on U= r-Fascism=C2=A0provides a really useful sanity check that is particularly a= pt in the present time:=C2=A0</div><div><i><br></i></div><div><i>"<spa= n style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helve= tica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;text-align:justify">On the morning of = July 27, 1943, I was told that, according to radio reports, fascism had col= lapsed and Mussolini was under arrest. When my mother sent me out to buy th= e newspaper, I saw that the papers at the nearest newsstand had different t= itles. Moreover, after seeing the headlines, I realized that each newspaper= said different things. I bought one of them, blindly, and read a message o= n the first page signed by five or six political parties =E2=80=94 among th= em the Democrazia Cristiana, the Communist Party, the Socialist Party, the = Partito d=E2=80=99Azione, and the Liberal Party.</span></i></div><div><div = style=3D"text-align:justify"><font color=3D"#333333" face=3D"Helvetica Neue= , Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:14px"><i><br></i><= /span></font></div><p style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px 0px 10px;te= xt-align:justify;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Helvetica Neue"= ,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><i>Until then, I had believed t= hat there was a single party in every country and that in Italy it was the = Partito Nazionale Fascista. Now I was discovering that in my country severa= l parties could exist at the same time. Since I was a clever boy, I immedia= tely realized that so many parties could not have been born overnight, and = they must have existed for some time as clandestine organizations."</i= ><br><br>I personally find that applying this test to every political panic= to be a useful=C2=A0balm.</p>It's a much broader discussion that exten= ds well beyond the current era to larger currents of the global social and = economic order basically since WW2, long-past the point where it should hav= e rightly collapsed. Current events are the continued=C2=A0unresolved fallo= ut of what happened in 2007. Don't look to journalists, wikipedia (whic= h, on political matters, is just basically just the opinions of the sponsor= of editors' cocktail parties), or AI (which, on political matters, is = basically just repackaged wikipedia) for insight into matters like this. As= Mark Twain noted: "If you don't read the newspaper, you're un= informed. If you read the newspaper, you're mis-informed". Better = to be uninformed, but unfortunately the system has become so all-pervasive = that it is impossible to remain free from its influence unless you actually= devote some serious thought to it.<br><br>Long story short: Science cannot= save itself by becoming a cloying mouthpiece for the local the cocktail pa= rty circuit. Those days are, be it fortunately or unfortunately, well passe= d.<br><br>Doug<br><br><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div d= ir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 at 04:47, Alain de Chev= eigne <<a href=3D"mailto:alain.de.cheveigne@xxxxxxxx" rel=3D"noreferre= r noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">alain.de.cheveigne@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote= :<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.= 8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Scott, <br> <br> I followed your advice, and read what you had to say with empathy and an op= en mind.=C2=A0 Sadly, it does not make good sense. You complain that the li= st 'devolves into a political battleground,' but then wade in whole= heartedly. You defend a pristine channel of scientific debate, but defend t= he notion of science itself being sacrificed to fix the debt. <br> <br> As an accomplished engineer, you should feel that something is wrong. For o= ne thing, the cost of science is a minor factor in the debt. We usually att= end to major factors before minor. For another, science (like other element= s of society funded collectively) creates the platform on which you and oth= ers create wealth. It seems strange that the richest country on the planet = suddenly thinks that such basics are not worth paying for. A reluctance to = pay tax is the major factor in the debt.<br> <br> An apt metaphor is an apple tree. All we care for is the apples, but we wou= ld not get rid of leaves, branches, roots, soil and water because they appe= ar wasteful.=C2=A0 A tree might benefit from pruning to remove dead wood an= d superfluous branches, but you do not go at it with a chainsaw.<br> <br> What is happening to the US reminds me of the zombie ants who suddenly figu= re that it is a good idea to latch on to a leaf and die. In the ant, this b= ehavior results from the hijacking of neural circuits that process informat= ion and control action.=C2=A0 Those circuits normally ensure homeostasis, k= eeping the ant (and its colony and species) alive, much like the controls o= f a plane keep it in the air. Hijacking those controls might allow the hija= cker to influence the trajectory to their benefit, at the expense of the pl= ane and its pilot.=C2=A0 <br> <br> You single out 'polarization' of the (US) electorate and 'moder= n media' as causes. Why is it that I, who am not part of that electorat= e and partake sparingly of social or even written media, am so apprehensive= of the current trajectory?<br> <br> To answer the original question about the 'silence of senior leaders= 9;, those 'leaders' are confused and scared. Confused because their= usual levers of action no longer work and they do they fully understand wh= y and how to fix them, and scared because of recent examples of retribution= and bullying, in scientific spheres or elsewhere.<br> <br> This is why politics might seep into the scientific debate from time to tim= e. Regrettable? Yes.<br> <br> Alain<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> > On 22 Mar 2025, at 17:05, J. Scott Merritt <<a href=3D"mailto:alsau= ser@xxxxxxxx" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">alsause= r@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br> > <br> > I am saddened to see the Auditory List devolving into a political batt= leground.=C2=A0 If additional political "discourse" is needed, th= ere is certainly no shortage of other places on the web where it can be fou= nd.<br> > <br> > From my perspective, the -central- problem with US politics is the inc= reasing polarization of the electorate.=C2=A0 Gone are the moderate statesm= en/women that seek a fair compromise acceptable to most.=C2=A0 I put the bl= ame for this situation firmly at the feet of modern media - where all of th= e incentives are singularly aligned with increased "engagement" o= f their viewers.<br> > <br> > Given that view point, I disagree with the premise that each side shou= ld put as much effort as possible into organizing their resistance and furt= her arguing their points.=C2=A0 Instead, I believe we need more people to l= isten carefully, with patience and empathy, to the grievances of all sides = in hopes of finding a middle ground that works for all.<br> > <br> > I would venture to say that the majority of the US electorate would ag= ree that the massive debt that US has run up is a significant problem, and = would further agree that reduced scientific research funding is an appropri= ate (albeit small) step to address that problem.=C2=A0 As such, it would be= hard to argue that reduced scientific research funding, by itself, is an a= ssault on American democracy.<br> > <br> > It can certainly be argued that the methods apparently being used to r= educe funding are crude and not well prioritized, with an emphasis on haste= rather than wisdom.=C2=A0 Unfortunately, I fear that this will remain the = case while the electorate is so heavily polarized and we careen viciously t= o the left or right after each election.<br> > <br> > So ... my suggestions is NOT to "put as much effort as possible i= nto organising resistance to this coup" ... but rather to engage -indi= vidually- with those of differing viewpoints, with patience and empathy, in= hopes of reaching a better shared vision and understanding.<br> > <br> > <br> > On Wed, 19 Mar 2025 08:25:25 +0000<br> > Petter Kallioinen <<a href=3D"mailto:000001c5645d28b7-dmarc-request= @xxxxxxxx" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">000001c56= 45d28b7-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br> > <br> >> I am writing from Stockholm following what I take to be the fall o= f American democracy. My advice is to not the resist the urgency of this si= tuation and not hope for the best. What I would suggest is for everyone to = minimize their ordinary work on a stable level and put as much effort as po= ssible into organising resistance to this coup. Everyone!<br> </blockquote></div> </blockquote></div> </blockquote></div> </blockquote></div> </blockquote></div> --000000000000ea29510631acd974--