Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Silence from leaders in auditory science From: Nathan Barlow <nb.audiology@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2025 20:02:09 +0100--00000000000072b66f063193f111 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No snark at all intended. Apologies if it came across that way. N On Sun, 30 Mar 2025, 05:19 Douglas Scott, <jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > The snark is completely uncalled for. > > For the record, I wasn't referring to the Cocktail Party Effect, but > rather to Champagne Socialism. This is not intended to be partisan. I'm > certainly not trying to attack one ideology or another here (although I > certainly do get the distinct impression that I am being attacked by a > particular ideology): Any research becomes susceptible once they place > political concerns over scientific concerns. In this case, it is > specifically the phenomenon where well funded researchers choose not to > consider the sources of funding of their research, or the ultimate ethica= l > implications of accepting it, because doing so risks that funding. > > The analogue to the Cocktail Party Effect would be where a researcher > tunes valid sources of information (even from erstwhile political allies) > to focus on a message that elevates their own specialty for short term > gains to their own careers at the risk of damaging scientific integrity a= nd > the trust of the general public in science in the long run. > > I am also fully aware of the political realities connected to funding. > However, what I am advocating against is bringing political discussions > into actual scientific forums. It's one thing to discuss such things at > cocktail parties, Cocktail Party Effect or no. Quite another to bring it > into the lab. > > Doug > > On Sat, 29 Mar 2025 at 00:32, Nathan Barlow <nb.audiology@xxxxxxxx> > wrote: > >> Congratulations on the correct mention of The Cocktail Party effect. >> >> Sadly I was not playing white noise whilst reading your passage from >> 1940s Italy , so was not experiencing said neurological effect when your >> conclusion mentioned said Effect. >> >> Such is life. >> >> >> N. >> BSc, PGDip, MSc(SpchSci)(Hons), CoP, MSc(Clinical Audiology)(Soton) >> www.eresope.wordpress.com >> @xxxxxxxx >> >> >> On Tue, 25 Mar 2025, 04:32 Douglas Scott, <jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx> >> wrote: >> >>> Alain >>> >>> If you want to talk politics we can do so. >>> >>> I understand the apprehension you feel, but have you considered the fac= t >>> that it is precisely a result of the low quality of the information on = the >>> matter you are consuming? I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm just >>> pointing out that media organisations take in the same sources of fundi= ng >>> that many researchers have come to rely on for very nefarious purposes = from >>> less than salubrious sources. Otherwise thoughtful and intelligent peop= le >>> who only dip their toes in the water and react emotionally to an endles= s >>> stream of manipulative propaganda are exactly the target market. >>> >>> As a general rule, if you are told you should feel bad for holding >>> certain opinions or questioning others, there is a very high chance tha= t >>> you are a target of information warfare. Eco's often misunderstood essa= y on >>> Ur-Fascism provides a really useful sanity check that is particularly a= pt >>> in the present time: >>> >>> *"On the morning of July 27, 1943, I was told that, according to radio >>> reports, fascism had collapsed and Mussolini was under arrest. When my >>> mother sent me out to buy the newspaper, I saw that the papers at the >>> nearest newsstand had different titles. Moreover, after seeing the >>> headlines, I realized that each newspaper said different things. I boug= ht >>> one of them, blindly, and read a message on the first page signed by fi= ve >>> or six political parties =E2=80=94 among them the Democrazia Cristiana,= the >>> Communist Party, the Socialist Party, the Partito d=E2=80=99Azione, and= the Liberal >>> Party.* >>> >>> *Until then, I had believed that there was a single party in every >>> country and that in Italy it was the Partito Nazionale Fascista. Now I = was >>> discovering that in my country several parties could exist at the same >>> time. Since I was a clever boy, I immediately realized that so many par= ties >>> could not have been born overnight, and they must have existed for some >>> time as clandestine organizations."* >>> >>> I personally find that applying this test to every political panic to b= e >>> a useful balm. >>> It's a much broader discussion that extends well beyond the current era >>> to larger currents of the global social and economic order basically si= nce >>> WW2, long-past the point where it should have rightly collapsed. Curren= t >>> events are the continued unresolved fallout of what happened in 2007. D= on't >>> look to journalists, wikipedia (which, on political matters, is just >>> basically just the opinions of the sponsor of editors' cocktail parties= ), >>> or AI (which, on political matters, is basically just repackaged wikipe= dia) >>> for insight into matters like this. As Mark Twain noted: "If you don't = read >>> the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're >>> mis-informed". Better to be uninformed, but unfortunately the system ha= s >>> become so all-pervasive that it is impossible to remain free from its >>> influence unless you actually devote some serious thought to it. >>> >>> Long story short: Science cannot save itself by becoming a cloying >>> mouthpiece for the local the cocktail party circuit. Those days are, be= it >>> fortunately or unfortunately, well passed. >>> >>> Doug >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 at 04:47, Alain de Cheveigne < >>> alain.de.cheveigne@xxxxxxxx> wrote: >>> >>>> Scott, >>>> >>>> I followed your advice, and read what you had to say with empathy and >>>> an open mind. Sadly, it does not make good sense. You complain that t= he >>>> list 'devolves into a political battleground,' but then wade in >>>> wholeheartedly. You defend a pristine channel of scientific debate, bu= t >>>> defend the notion of science itself being sacrificed to fix the debt. >>>> >>>> As an accomplished engineer, you should feel that something is wrong. >>>> For one thing, the cost of science is a minor factor in the debt. We >>>> usually attend to major factors before minor. For another, science (li= ke >>>> other elements of society funded collectively) creates the platform on >>>> which you and others create wealth. It seems strange that the richest >>>> country on the planet suddenly thinks that such basics are not worth p= aying >>>> for. A reluctance to pay tax is the major factor in the debt. >>>> >>>> An apt metaphor is an apple tree. All we care for is the apples, but w= e >>>> would not get rid of leaves, branches, roots, soil and water because t= hey >>>> appear wasteful. A tree might benefit from pruning to remove dead woo= d and >>>> superfluous branches, but you do not go at it with a chainsaw. >>>> >>>> What is happening to the US reminds me of the zombie ants who suddenly >>>> figure that it is a good idea to latch on to a leaf and die. In the an= t, >>>> this behavior results from the hijacking of neural circuits that proce= ss >>>> information and control action. Those circuits normally ensure >>>> homeostasis, keeping the ant (and its colony and species) alive, much = like >>>> the controls of a plane keep it in the air. Hijacking those controls m= ight >>>> allow the hijacker to influence the trajectory to their benefit, at th= e >>>> expense of the plane and its pilot. >>>> >>>> You single out 'polarization' of the (US) electorate and 'modern media= ' >>>> as causes. Why is it that I, who am not part of that electorate and pa= rtake >>>> sparingly of social or even written media, am so apprehensive of the >>>> current trajectory? >>>> >>>> To answer the original question about the 'silence of senior leaders', >>>> those 'leaders' are confused and scared. Confused because their usual >>>> levers of action no longer work and they do they fully understand why = and >>>> how to fix them, and scared because of recent examples of retribution = and >>>> bullying, in scientific spheres or elsewhere. >>>> >>>> This is why politics might seep into the scientific debate from time t= o >>>> time. Regrettable? Yes. >>>> >>>> Alain >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > On 22 Mar 2025, at 17:05, J. Scott Merritt <alsauser@xxxxxxxx> >>>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > I am saddened to see the Auditory List devolving into a political >>>> battleground. If additional political "discourse" is needed, there is >>>> certainly no shortage of other places on the web where it can be found= . >>>> > >>>> > From my perspective, the -central- problem with US politics is the >>>> increasing polarization of the electorate. Gone are the moderate >>>> statesmen/women that seek a fair compromise acceptable to most. I put= the >>>> blame for this situation firmly at the feet of modern media - where al= l of >>>> the incentives are singularly aligned with increased "engagement" of t= heir >>>> viewers. >>>> > >>>> > Given that view point, I disagree with the premise that each side >>>> should put as much effort as possible into organizing their resistance= and >>>> further arguing their points. Instead, I believe we need more people = to >>>> listen carefully, with patience and empathy, to the grievances of all = sides >>>> in hopes of finding a middle ground that works for all. >>>> > >>>> > I would venture to say that the majority of the US electorate would >>>> agree that the massive debt that US has run up is a significant proble= m, >>>> and would further agree that reduced scientific research funding is an >>>> appropriate (albeit small) step to address that problem. As such, it = would >>>> be hard to argue that reduced scientific research funding, by itself, = is an >>>> assault on American democracy. >>>> > >>>> > It can certainly be argued that the methods apparently being used to >>>> reduce funding are crude and not well prioritized, with an emphasis on >>>> haste rather than wisdom. Unfortunately, I fear that this will remain= the >>>> case while the electorate is so heavily polarized and we careen viciou= sly >>>> to the left or right after each election. >>>> > >>>> > So ... my suggestions is NOT to "put as much effort as possible into >>>> organising resistance to this coup" ... but rather to engage -individu= ally- >>>> with those of differing viewpoints, with patience and empathy, in hope= s of >>>> reaching a better shared vision and understanding. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On Wed, 19 Mar 2025 08:25:25 +0000 >>>> > Petter Kallioinen <000001c5645d28b7-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx> >>>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> I am writing from Stockholm following what I take to be the fall of >>>> American democracy. My advice is to not the resist the urgency of this >>>> situation and not hope for the best. What I would suggest is for every= one >>>> to minimize their ordinary work on a stable level and put as much effo= rt as >>>> possible into organising resistance to this coup. Everyone! >>>> >>> --00000000000072b66f063193f111 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <p dir=3D"ltr">No snark at all intended. Apologies if it came across that w= ay. </p> <p dir=3D"ltr">N</p> <br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class= =3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, 30 Mar 2025, 05:19 Douglas Scott, <<a href=3D"ma= ilto:jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx">jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br><= /div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le= ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">The snark is completel= y uncalled for.<div><br></div><div>For the record, I wasn't referring t= o the Cocktail Party Effect, but rather to Champagne Socialism. This is not= intended to be partisan. I'm certainly not trying to attack one ideolo= gy or another here (although I certainly do get the distinct impression tha= t I am being attacked by a particular ideology): Any research becomes susce= ptible once they place political concerns over scientific concerns. In this= case, it is specifically the phenomenon where well funded researchers choo= se not to consider the sources of funding of their research, or the ultimat= e ethical implications of accepting it,=C2=A0=C2=A0because doing so risks t= hat funding.</div><div><br></div><div>The analogue to the Cocktail Party Ef= fect would be where a researcher tunes valid sources of information (even f= rom erstwhile political=C2=A0allies) to focus on a message that elevates th= eir own specialty for short term gains to their own careers at the risk of = damaging scientific=C2=A0integrity and the trust of the general public in= =C2=A0science in the long run.</div><div><br>I am also fully aware of the p= olitical realities connected to funding. However, what I am advocating agai= nst is bringing political discussions into actual scientific forums. It'= ;s one thing to discuss such things at cocktail parties, Cocktail Party Eff= ect or no. Quite another to bring it into the lab.</div><div><br></div><div= >Doug</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"g= mail_attr">On Sat, 29 Mar 2025 at 00:32, Nathan Barlow <<a href=3D"mailt= o:nb.audiology@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">nb.audiology= @xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style= =3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding= -left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Congratulations on the correct mention of= The Cocktail Party effect.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir= =3D"auto">Sadly I was not playing white noise whilst reading your passage f= rom 1940s Italy , so was not experiencing said neurological effect when you= r conclusion mentioned said Effect.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>= <div dir=3D"auto">Such is life.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div= ><br></div><div><div dir=3D"ltr">N.<div><font size=3D"1" style=3D"backgroun= d-color:rgb(255,255,255)" color=3D"#666666">BSc, PGDip, MSc(SpchSci)(Hons),= CoP, MSc(Clinical Audiology)(Soton)</font></div><div><span style=3D"backgr= ound-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font color=3D"#000000"><a href=3D"http://www.= eresope.wordpress.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">www.eresope.wor= dpress.com</a></font></span></div><div><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(= 255,255,255)">@xxxxxxxx</span></div><div><span style=3D"background-color:rg= b(255,255,255)"><br></span></div></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_= quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, 25 Mar 2025, 04:32 Dou= glas Scott, <<a href=3D"mailto:jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blan= k" rel=3D"noreferrer">jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br></div><blo= ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left= :1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Alain<div><b= r></div><div>If you want to talk politics=C2=A0we can do so.<br><br>I under= stand the apprehension you feel, but have you considered the fact that it i= s precisely a result of the low quality of the information on the matter yo= u are consuming? I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm just point= ing out that media organisations take in the same sources of funding that m= any researchers have come to rely on for very nefarious purposes from less = than salubrious sources. Otherwise thoughtful and intelligent people who on= ly dip their toes in the water and react emotionally to an endless stream o= f manipulative propaganda are exactly the target market.<br><br>As a genera= l rule, if you are told you should feel bad for holding certain opinions or= questioning others, there is a very high chance that you are a target of i= nformation warfare. Eco's often misunderstood essay on Ur-Fascism=C2=A0= provides a really useful sanity check that is particularly apt in the prese= nt time:=C2=A0</div><div><i><br></i></div><div><i>"<span style=3D"colo= r:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans= -serif;font-size:14px;text-align:justify">On the morning of July 27, 1943, = I was told that, according to radio reports, fascism had collapsed and Muss= olini was under arrest. When my mother sent me out to buy the newspaper, I = saw that the papers at the nearest newsstand had different titles. Moreover= , after seeing the headlines, I realized that each newspaper said different= things. I bought one of them, blindly, and read a message on the first pag= e signed by five or six political parties =E2=80=94 among them the Democraz= ia Cristiana, the Communist Party, the Socialist Party, the Partito d=E2=80= =99Azione, and the Liberal Party.</span></i></div><div><div style=3D"text-a= lign:justify"><font color=3D"#333333" face=3D"Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Ar= ial, sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:14px"><i><br></i></span></font></= div><p style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px 0px 10px;text-align:justif= y;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Aria= l,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><i>Until then, I had believed that there was a= single party in every country and that in Italy it was the Partito Naziona= le Fascista. Now I was discovering that in my country several parties could= exist at the same time. Since I was a clever boy, I immediately realized t= hat so many parties could not have been born overnight, and they must have = existed for some time as clandestine organizations."</i><br><br>I pers= onally find that applying this test to every political panic to be a useful= =C2=A0balm.</p>It's a much broader discussion that extends well beyond = the current era to larger currents of the global social and economic order = basically since WW2, long-past the point where it should have rightly colla= psed. Current events are the continued=C2=A0unresolved fallout of what happ= ened in 2007. Don't look to journalists, wikipedia (which, on political= matters, is just basically just the opinions of the sponsor of editors'= ; cocktail parties), or AI (which, on political matters, is basically just = repackaged wikipedia) for insight into matters like this. As Mark Twain not= ed: "If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If yo= u read the newspaper, you're mis-informed". Better to be uninforme= d, but unfortunately the system has become so all-pervasive that it is impo= ssible to remain free from its influence unless you actually devote some se= rious thought to it.<br><br>Long story short: Science cannot save itself by= becoming a cloying mouthpiece for the local the cocktail party circuit. Th= ose days are, be it fortunately or unfortunately, well passed.<br><br>Doug<= br><br><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" clas= s=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 at 04:47, Alain de Cheveigne <<a hr= ef=3D"mailto:alain.de.cheveigne@xxxxxxxx" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" t= arget=3D"_blank">alain.de.cheveigne@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br></div><blo= ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left= :1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Scott, <br> <br> I followed your advice, and read what you had to say with empathy and an op= en mind.=C2=A0 Sadly, it does not make good sense. You complain that the li= st 'devolves into a political battleground,' but then wade in whole= heartedly. You defend a pristine channel of scientific debate, but defend t= he notion of science itself being sacrificed to fix the debt. <br> <br> As an accomplished engineer, you should feel that something is wrong. For o= ne thing, the cost of science is a minor factor in the debt. We usually att= end to major factors before minor. For another, science (like other element= s of society funded collectively) creates the platform on which you and oth= ers create wealth. It seems strange that the richest country on the planet = suddenly thinks that such basics are not worth paying for. A reluctance to = pay tax is the major factor in the debt.<br> <br> An apt metaphor is an apple tree. All we care for is the apples, but we wou= ld not get rid of leaves, branches, roots, soil and water because they appe= ar wasteful.=C2=A0 A tree might benefit from pruning to remove dead wood an= d superfluous branches, but you do not go at it with a chainsaw.<br> <br> What is happening to the US reminds me of the zombie ants who suddenly figu= re that it is a good idea to latch on to a leaf and die. In the ant, this b= ehavior results from the hijacking of neural circuits that process informat= ion and control action.=C2=A0 Those circuits normally ensure homeostasis, k= eeping the ant (and its colony and species) alive, much like the controls o= f a plane keep it in the air. Hijacking those controls might allow the hija= cker to influence the trajectory to their benefit, at the expense of the pl= ane and its pilot.=C2=A0 <br> <br> You single out 'polarization' of the (US) electorate and 'moder= n media' as causes. Why is it that I, who am not part of that electorat= e and partake sparingly of social or even written media, am so apprehensive= of the current trajectory?<br> <br> To answer the original question about the 'silence of senior leaders= 9;, those 'leaders' are confused and scared. Confused because their= usual levers of action no longer work and they do they fully understand wh= y and how to fix them, and scared because of recent examples of retribution= and bullying, in scientific spheres or elsewhere.<br> <br> This is why politics might seep into the scientific debate from time to tim= e. Regrettable? Yes.<br> <br> Alain<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> > On 22 Mar 2025, at 17:05, J. Scott Merritt <<a href=3D"mailto:alsau= ser@xxxxxxxx" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">alsause= r@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br> > <br> > I am saddened to see the Auditory List devolving into a political batt= leground.=C2=A0 If additional political "discourse" is needed, th= ere is certainly no shortage of other places on the web where it can be fou= nd.<br> > <br> > From my perspective, the -central- problem with US politics is the inc= reasing polarization of the electorate.=C2=A0 Gone are the moderate statesm= en/women that seek a fair compromise acceptable to most.=C2=A0 I put the bl= ame for this situation firmly at the feet of modern media - where all of th= e incentives are singularly aligned with increased "engagement" o= f their viewers.<br> > <br> > Given that view point, I disagree with the premise that each side shou= ld put as much effort as possible into organizing their resistance and furt= her arguing their points.=C2=A0 Instead, I believe we need more people to l= isten carefully, with patience and empathy, to the grievances of all sides = in hopes of finding a middle ground that works for all.<br> > <br> > I would venture to say that the majority of the US electorate would ag= ree that the massive debt that US has run up is a significant problem, and = would further agree that reduced scientific research funding is an appropri= ate (albeit small) step to address that problem.=C2=A0 As such, it would be= hard to argue that reduced scientific research funding, by itself, is an a= ssault on American democracy.<br> > <br> > It can certainly be argued that the methods apparently being used to r= educe funding are crude and not well prioritized, with an emphasis on haste= rather than wisdom.=C2=A0 Unfortunately, I fear that this will remain the = case while the electorate is so heavily polarized and we careen viciously t= o the left or right after each election.<br> > <br> > So ... my suggestions is NOT to "put as much effort as possible i= nto organising resistance to this coup" ... but rather to engage -indi= vidually- with those of differing viewpoints, with patience and empathy, in= hopes of reaching a better shared vision and understanding.<br> > <br> > <br> > On Wed, 19 Mar 2025 08:25:25 +0000<br> > Petter Kallioinen <<a href=3D"mailto:000001c5645d28b7-dmarc-request= @xxxxxxxx" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">000001c56= 45d28b7-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br> > <br> >> I am writing from Stockholm following what I take to be the fall o= f American democracy. My advice is to not the resist the urgency of this si= tuation and not hope for the best. What I would suggest is for everyone to = minimize their ordinary work on a stable level and put as much effort as po= ssible into organising resistance to this coup. Everyone!<br> </blockquote></div> </blockquote></div> </blockquote></div> </blockquote></div> --00000000000072b66f063193f111--