Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Silence from leaders in auditory science From: Nathan Barlow <nb.audiology@xxxxxxxx> Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2025 02:05:23 +0000--0000000000009172c806315d8164 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Congratulations on the correct mention of The Cocktail Party effect. Sadly I was not playing white noise whilst reading your passage from 1940s Italy , so was not experiencing said neurological effect when your conclusion mentioned said Effect. Such is life. N. BSc, PGDip, MSc(SpchSci)(Hons), CoP, MSc(Clinical Audiology)(Soton) www.eresope.wordpress.com @xxxxxxxx On Tue, 25 Mar 2025, 04:32 Douglas Scott, <jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > Alain > > If you want to talk politics we can do so. > > I understand the apprehension you feel, but have you considered the fact > that it is precisely a result of the low quality of the information on th= e > matter you are consuming? I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm just > pointing out that media organisations take in the same sources of funding > that many researchers have come to rely on for very nefarious purposes fr= om > less than salubrious sources. Otherwise thoughtful and intelligent people > who only dip their toes in the water and react emotionally to an endless > stream of manipulative propaganda are exactly the target market. > > As a general rule, if you are told you should feel bad for holding certai= n > opinions or questioning others, there is a very high chance that you are = a > target of information warfare. Eco's often misunderstood essay on > Ur-Fascism provides a really useful sanity check that is particularly apt > in the present time: > > *"On the morning of July 27, 1943, I was told that, according to radio > reports, fascism had collapsed and Mussolini was under arrest. When my > mother sent me out to buy the newspaper, I saw that the papers at the > nearest newsstand had different titles. Moreover, after seeing the > headlines, I realized that each newspaper said different things. I bought > one of them, blindly, and read a message on the first page signed by five > or six political parties =E2=80=94 among them the Democrazia Cristiana, t= he > Communist Party, the Socialist Party, the Partito d=E2=80=99Azione, and t= he Liberal > Party.* > > *Until then, I had believed that there was a single party in every countr= y > and that in Italy it was the Partito Nazionale Fascista. Now I was > discovering that in my country several parties could exist at the same > time. Since I was a clever boy, I immediately realized that so many parti= es > could not have been born overnight, and they must have existed for some > time as clandestine organizations."* > > I personally find that applying this test to every political panic to be = a > useful balm. > It's a much broader discussion that extends well beyond the current era t= o > larger currents of the global social and economic order basically since > WW2, long-past the point where it should have rightly collapsed. Current > events are the continued unresolved fallout of what happened in 2007. Don= 't > look to journalists, wikipedia (which, on political matters, is just > basically just the opinions of the sponsor of editors' cocktail parties), > or AI (which, on political matters, is basically just repackaged wikipedi= a) > for insight into matters like this. As Mark Twain noted: "If you don't re= ad > the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're > mis-informed". Better to be uninformed, but unfortunately the system has > become so all-pervasive that it is impossible to remain free from its > influence unless you actually devote some serious thought to it. > > Long story short: Science cannot save itself by becoming a cloying > mouthpiece for the local the cocktail party circuit. Those days are, be i= t > fortunately or unfortunately, well passed. > > Doug > > > > On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 at 04:47, Alain de Cheveigne < > alain.de.cheveigne@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > >> Scott, >> >> I followed your advice, and read what you had to say with empathy and an >> open mind. Sadly, it does not make good sense. You complain that the li= st >> 'devolves into a political battleground,' but then wade in wholeheartedl= y. >> You defend a pristine channel of scientific debate, but defend the notio= n >> of science itself being sacrificed to fix the debt. >> >> As an accomplished engineer, you should feel that something is wrong. Fo= r >> one thing, the cost of science is a minor factor in the debt. We usually >> attend to major factors before minor. For another, science (like other >> elements of society funded collectively) creates the platform on which y= ou >> and others create wealth. It seems strange that the richest country on t= he >> planet suddenly thinks that such basics are not worth paying for. A >> reluctance to pay tax is the major factor in the debt. >> >> An apt metaphor is an apple tree. All we care for is the apples, but we >> would not get rid of leaves, branches, roots, soil and water because the= y >> appear wasteful. A tree might benefit from pruning to remove dead wood = and >> superfluous branches, but you do not go at it with a chainsaw. >> >> What is happening to the US reminds me of the zombie ants who suddenly >> figure that it is a good idea to latch on to a leaf and die. In the ant, >> this behavior results from the hijacking of neural circuits that process >> information and control action. Those circuits normally ensure >> homeostasis, keeping the ant (and its colony and species) alive, much li= ke >> the controls of a plane keep it in the air. Hijacking those controls mig= ht >> allow the hijacker to influence the trajectory to their benefit, at the >> expense of the plane and its pilot. >> >> You single out 'polarization' of the (US) electorate and 'modern media' >> as causes. Why is it that I, who am not part of that electorate and part= ake >> sparingly of social or even written media, am so apprehensive of the >> current trajectory? >> >> To answer the original question about the 'silence of senior leaders', >> those 'leaders' are confused and scared. Confused because their usual >> levers of action no longer work and they do they fully understand why an= d >> how to fix them, and scared because of recent examples of retribution an= d >> bullying, in scientific spheres or elsewhere. >> >> This is why politics might seep into the scientific debate from time to >> time. Regrettable? Yes. >> >> Alain >> >> >> >> >> >> > On 22 Mar 2025, at 17:05, J. Scott Merritt <alsauser@xxxxxxxx> >> wrote: >> > >> > I am saddened to see the Auditory List devolving into a political >> battleground. If additional political "discourse" is needed, there is >> certainly no shortage of other places on the web where it can be found. >> > >> > From my perspective, the -central- problem with US politics is the >> increasing polarization of the electorate. Gone are the moderate >> statesmen/women that seek a fair compromise acceptable to most. I put t= he >> blame for this situation firmly at the feet of modern media - where all = of >> the incentives are singularly aligned with increased "engagement" of the= ir >> viewers. >> > >> > Given that view point, I disagree with the premise that each side >> should put as much effort as possible into organizing their resistance a= nd >> further arguing their points. Instead, I believe we need more people to >> listen carefully, with patience and empathy, to the grievances of all si= des >> in hopes of finding a middle ground that works for all. >> > >> > I would venture to say that the majority of the US electorate would >> agree that the massive debt that US has run up is a significant problem, >> and would further agree that reduced scientific research funding is an >> appropriate (albeit small) step to address that problem. As such, it wo= uld >> be hard to argue that reduced scientific research funding, by itself, is= an >> assault on American democracy. >> > >> > It can certainly be argued that the methods apparently being used to >> reduce funding are crude and not well prioritized, with an emphasis on >> haste rather than wisdom. Unfortunately, I fear that this will remain t= he >> case while the electorate is so heavily polarized and we careen viciousl= y >> to the left or right after each election. >> > >> > So ... my suggestions is NOT to "put as much effort as possible into >> organising resistance to this coup" ... but rather to engage -individual= ly- >> with those of differing viewpoints, with patience and empathy, in hopes = of >> reaching a better shared vision and understanding. >> > >> > >> > On Wed, 19 Mar 2025 08:25:25 +0000 >> > Petter Kallioinen <000001c5645d28b7-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx> >> wrote: >> > >> >> I am writing from Stockholm following what I take to be the fall of >> American democracy. My advice is to not the resist the urgency of this >> situation and not hope for the best. What I would suggest is for everyon= e >> to minimize their ordinary work on a stable level and put as much effort= as >> possible into organising resistance to this coup. Everyone! >> > --0000000000009172c806315d8164 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"auto"><div>Congratulations on the correct mention of The Cockta= il Party effect.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">S= adly I was not playing white noise whilst reading your passage from 1940s I= taly , so was not experiencing said neurological effect when your conclusio= n mentioned said Effect.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D= "auto">Such is life.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div><br></div>= <div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">N.<div><font size= =3D"1" style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" color=3D"#666666">BSc, P= GDip, MSc(SpchSci)(Hons), CoP, MSc(Clinical Audiology)(Soton)</font></div><= div><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font color=3D"#00000= 0"><a href=3D"http://www.eresope.wordpress.com" target=3D"_blank">www.ereso= pe.wordpress.com</a></font></span></div><div><span style=3D"background-colo= r:rgb(255,255,255)">@xxxxxxxx</span></div><div><span style=3D"background-co= lor:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></span></div></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"= gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On= Tue, 25 Mar 2025, 04:32 Douglas Scott, <<a href=3D"mailto:jdmusictuitio= n@xxxxxxxx">jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote c= lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;= padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Alain<div><br></div><div>If you want to = talk politics=C2=A0we can do so.<br><br>I understand the apprehension you f= eel, but have you considered the fact that it is precisely a result of the = low quality of the information on the matter you are consuming? I'm not= trying to be condescending, I'm just pointing out that media organisat= ions take in the same sources of funding that many researchers have come to= rely on for very nefarious purposes from less than salubrious sources. Oth= erwise thoughtful and intelligent people who only dip their toes in the wat= er and react emotionally to an endless stream of manipulative propaganda ar= e exactly the target market.<br><br>As a general rule, if you are told you = should feel bad for holding certain opinions or questioning others, there i= s a very high chance that you are a target of information warfare. Eco'= s often misunderstood essay on Ur-Fascism=C2=A0provides a really useful san= ity check that is particularly apt in the present time:=C2=A0</div><div><i>= <br></i></div><div><i>"<span style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:= "Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;text-a= lign:justify">On the morning of July 27, 1943, I was told that, according t= o radio reports, fascism had collapsed and Mussolini was under arrest. When= my mother sent me out to buy the newspaper, I saw that the papers at the n= earest newsstand had different titles. Moreover, after seeing the headlines= , I realized that each newspaper said different things. I bought one of the= m, blindly, and read a message on the first page signed by five or six poli= tical parties =E2=80=94 among them the Democrazia Cristiana, the Communist = Party, the Socialist Party, the Partito d=E2=80=99Azione, and the Liberal P= arty.</span></i></div><div><div style=3D"text-align:justify"><font color=3D= "#333333" face=3D"Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span style= =3D"font-size:14px"><i><br></i></span></font></div><p style=3D"box-sizing:b= order-box;margin:0px 0px 10px;text-align:justify;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-f= amily:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"= ><i>Until then, I had believed that there was a single party in every count= ry and that in Italy it was the Partito Nazionale Fascista. Now I was disco= vering that in my country several parties could exist at the same time. Sin= ce I was a clever boy, I immediately realized that so many parties could no= t have been born overnight, and they must have existed for some time as cla= ndestine organizations."</i><br><br>I personally find that applying th= is test to every political panic to be a useful=C2=A0balm.</p>It's a mu= ch broader discussion that extends well beyond the current era to larger cu= rrents of the global social and economic order basically since WW2, long-pa= st the point where it should have rightly collapsed. Current events are the= continued=C2=A0unresolved fallout of what happened in 2007. Don't look= to journalists, wikipedia (which, on political matters, is just basically = just the opinions of the sponsor of editors' cocktail parties), or AI (= which, on political matters, is basically just repackaged wikipedia) for in= sight into matters like this. As Mark Twain noted: "If you don't r= ead the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you= 9;re mis-informed". Better to be uninformed, but unfortunately the sys= tem has become so all-pervasive that it is impossible to remain free from i= ts influence unless you actually devote some serious thought to it.<br><br>= Long story short: Science cannot save itself by becoming a cloying mouthpie= ce for the local the cocktail party circuit. Those days are, be it fortunat= ely or unfortunately, well passed.<br><br>Doug<br><br><br></div></div><br><= div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, 24 = Mar 2025 at 04:47, Alain de Cheveigne <<a href=3D"mailto:alain.de.chevei= gne@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">alain.de.cheveigne@xxxxxxxx= .psl.eu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"= margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef= t:1ex">Scott, <br> <br> I followed your advice, and read what you had to say with empathy and an op= en mind.=C2=A0 Sadly, it does not make good sense. You complain that the li= st 'devolves into a political battleground,' but then wade in whole= heartedly. You defend a pristine channel of scientific debate, but defend t= he notion of science itself being sacrificed to fix the debt. <br> <br> As an accomplished engineer, you should feel that something is wrong. For o= ne thing, the cost of science is a minor factor in the debt. We usually att= end to major factors before minor. For another, science (like other element= s of society funded collectively) creates the platform on which you and oth= ers create wealth. It seems strange that the richest country on the planet = suddenly thinks that such basics are not worth paying for. A reluctance to = pay tax is the major factor in the debt.<br> <br> An apt metaphor is an apple tree. All we care for is the apples, but we wou= ld not get rid of leaves, branches, roots, soil and water because they appe= ar wasteful.=C2=A0 A tree might benefit from pruning to remove dead wood an= d superfluous branches, but you do not go at it with a chainsaw.<br> <br> What is happening to the US reminds me of the zombie ants who suddenly figu= re that it is a good idea to latch on to a leaf and die. In the ant, this b= ehavior results from the hijacking of neural circuits that process informat= ion and control action.=C2=A0 Those circuits normally ensure homeostasis, k= eeping the ant (and its colony and species) alive, much like the controls o= f a plane keep it in the air. Hijacking those controls might allow the hija= cker to influence the trajectory to their benefit, at the expense of the pl= ane and its pilot.=C2=A0 <br> <br> You single out 'polarization' of the (US) electorate and 'moder= n media' as causes. Why is it that I, who am not part of that electorat= e and partake sparingly of social or even written media, am so apprehensive= of the current trajectory?<br> <br> To answer the original question about the 'silence of senior leaders= 9;, those 'leaders' are confused and scared. Confused because their= usual levers of action no longer work and they do they fully understand wh= y and how to fix them, and scared because of recent examples of retribution= and bullying, in scientific spheres or elsewhere.<br> <br> This is why politics might seep into the scientific debate from time to tim= e. Regrettable? Yes.<br> <br> Alain<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> > On 22 Mar 2025, at 17:05, J. Scott Merritt <<a href=3D"mailto:alsau= ser@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">alsauser@xxxxxxxx= T.COM</a>> wrote:<br> > <br> > I am saddened to see the Auditory List devolving into a political batt= leground.=C2=A0 If additional political "discourse" is needed, th= ere is certainly no shortage of other places on the web where it can be fou= nd.<br> > <br> > From my perspective, the -central- problem with US politics is the inc= reasing polarization of the electorate.=C2=A0 Gone are the moderate statesm= en/women that seek a fair compromise acceptable to most.=C2=A0 I put the bl= ame for this situation firmly at the feet of modern media - where all of th= e incentives are singularly aligned with increased "engagement" o= f their viewers.<br> > <br> > Given that view point, I disagree with the premise that each side shou= ld put as much effort as possible into organizing their resistance and furt= her arguing their points.=C2=A0 Instead, I believe we need more people to l= isten carefully, with patience and empathy, to the grievances of all sides = in hopes of finding a middle ground that works for all.<br> > <br> > I would venture to say that the majority of the US electorate would ag= ree that the massive debt that US has run up is a significant problem, and = would further agree that reduced scientific research funding is an appropri= ate (albeit small) step to address that problem.=C2=A0 As such, it would be= hard to argue that reduced scientific research funding, by itself, is an a= ssault on American democracy.<br> > <br> > It can certainly be argued that the methods apparently being used to r= educe funding are crude and not well prioritized, with an emphasis on haste= rather than wisdom.=C2=A0 Unfortunately, I fear that this will remain the = case while the electorate is so heavily polarized and we careen viciously t= o the left or right after each election.<br> > <br> > So ... my suggestions is NOT to "put as much effort as possible i= nto organising resistance to this coup" ... but rather to engage -indi= vidually- with those of differing viewpoints, with patience and empathy, in= hopes of reaching a better shared vision and understanding.<br> > <br> > <br> > On Wed, 19 Mar 2025 08:25:25 +0000<br> > Petter Kallioinen <<a href=3D"mailto:000001c5645d28b7-dmarc-request= @xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">000001c5645d28b7-dma= rc-request@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br> > <br> >> I am writing from Stockholm following what I take to be the fall o= f American democracy. My advice is to not the resist the urgency of this si= tuation and not hope for the best. What I would suggest is for everyone to = minimize their ordinary work on a stable level and put as much effort as po= ssible into organising resistance to this coup. Everyone!<br> </blockquote></div> </blockquote></div> --0000000000009172c806315d8164--