Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Silence from leaders in auditory science From: Douglas Scott <jdmusictuition@xxxxxxxx> Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2025 20:29:00 -0400--00000000000029c1d4063148e425 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tobias, The possible (even likely) misattribution of that Mark Twain is actually a great case in point about how misinformation works in practice. Let's say that phrase was never uttered by Mark Twain, shall we? Well, is it something Samuel Clemens might have said? Quote investigator tells us that he did say: "Often, the surest way to convey misinformation is to tell the strict truth" <https://quoteinvestigator.com/2016/12/03/misinformed/>. So the strict truth here is: No. But the misinformation would be that (a) Twain (or Clemens, or Pudd=E2=80=99nhead Wilson) would disagree with the sentiment and that (b) it therefore follows that journalists are thereby an appropriate source of factual information or political opinion for scientists. What is at issue here is whether it is appropriate for scientists (as a group) to tie their research, be it for pecuniary reasons or otherwise, to the latest political outrage or fashion of the day as directed by journalists. Journalists who ultimately answer to and work at the direction of editors who may or may not be in cahoots with all manner of national intelligence assets. What is *not* at issue is whether it was Thomas Jefferson, Samuel Clemens, or Orville Hubbard who should be credited with an amusing quip that happened to be apropos to the conversation. For my part, I would agree with John Maynard Keynes <https://rwer.wordpress.com/2013/09/19/why-it-is-better-to-be-roughly-right= -than-precisely-wrong/> Carveth Read in that "[...] it is a mistake to aim at an unattainable precision. It is better to be vaguely right than exactly wrong" (*Logic, deductive and inductive*, 1898, p. 351). Doug On Wed, 26 Mar 2025 at 00:15, Teichert, Tobias < 000003ce21b29f12-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > Dear colleagues, Dear Doug, > > I recently had a discussion with a friend about who got rid of the suprem= e > court filibuster. We had different memories of the event, so I googled it > and confirmed what I remembered to be true. Far from settling the point, = my > friend doubled down and told me that 'they' are all just lying. He just > knew that he was right but was not able to tell me what sources > he relied on so we could check them together. I later sent him an article > about the case from what I guessed was his favorite source of news which > confirmed the identical course of events. (He then agreed with the basic > facts, but moved on to blame others in the 'bigger scheme of things') > > I wholeheartedly agree that it can be hard to identify the truth these > days. But to abandon the notion of a knowable truth is deeply disturbing = to > me, especially coming from fellow scientists (other than quantum > physicists...). > > Case in point, when I googled the Mark Twain quote that was referenced by > Doug, it turns out that much of the internet believes it to be a > misattribution. I certainly did not have time to confirm whether or not t= he > source I found ( > https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/mark-twain-read-newspaper-misinformed/) > is correct or not, but I firmly believe that it is an answerable question > if one were to put effort into it. > > As a funny aside, the page has the following quote: > "[...] The aphorism was repeatedly used as a crutch for lazy columnists. > Thus emerges a meta-irony which Twain would undoubtedly have appreciated: > newspaper writers writing in newspapers about the unreliability of > newspaper writing and citing an unreliable source to testify to that > unreliability." > > If we believe that we live in a world where it is fundamentally not > knowable if Mark Twain ever wrote anything like it, then one would have t= o > leave it at this and move on. If, on the other hand, we find ourselves > turning to our browsers to either confirm or disprove this information, > then we must still believe in knowable truths. > > Happy googling! (I hope...) > > Cheers, > Tobias > > -- > Dr. Tobias Teichert > Associate Professor of Psychiatry and Bioengineering > University of Pittsburgh > > ------------------------------ > *From:* AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception < > AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> on behalf of Emmanuel Ponsot < > emmanuel.ponsot@xxxxxxxx> > *Sent:* Monday, March 24, 2025 5:36 PM > *To:* AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> > *Subject:* Re: [AUDITORY] Silence from leaders in auditory science > > [Some people who received this message don't often get email from > emmanuel.ponsot@xxxxxxxx Learn why this is important at > https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification ] > > Dear colleagues, > > In this climate of fear and uncertainty, we first want to express our > strong support for our American colleagues who are directly or indirectly > affected by the current attacks from the U.S. government on scientific > freedom. > > It's certainly worth reaffirming our values as scientists, those that > animate us beyond the hearing sciences community. These values are indeed > those espoused by the Stand Up for Science movement ( > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fstand= upforscience.fr%2F&data=3D05%7C02%7Cteichert%40PITT.EDU%7C94d13c6ecc624f759= b1108dd6b56b482%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1%7C0%7C63878474234213= 5073%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIl= AiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3Dh%2B4%2= Ft9o%2BBVre0%2B0hjBfQ0ZnTaue7p1K8b%2FTQATn4I%2B8%3D&reserved=3D0 > <https://standupforscience.fr/>), to which we lend our full support. They > are also the values upheld by democratic nations where science can be > conducted freely and without political interference. > At the European level, various initiatives are emerging to provide > structured, in-person support and financial assistance for American > researchers facing these challenges, which we hope will be implemented > quickly. For instance, in France, the universities of Aix-Marseille ( > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.u= niv-amu.fr%2Ffr%2Fpublic%2Factualites%2Fsafe-place-science-aix-marseille-un= iversite-prete-accueillir-les-scientifiques&data=3D05%7C02%7Cteichert%40PIT= T.EDU%7C94d13c6ecc624f759b1108dd6b56b482%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d= %7C1%7C0%7C638784742342155066%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRyd= WUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0= %7C%7C%7C&sdata=3D4o11kLYUz7a0braoLt26vS%2BHO92YYq0wrPpfwOZ52U8%3D&reserved= =3D0 > <https://www.univ-amu.fr/fr/public/actualites/safe-place-science-aix-mars= eille-universite-prete-accueillir-les-scientifiques>), > Lyon, and Paris-Sciences & Lettres have already launched the first hostin= g > initiatives, but other European institutions and foundations are expected > to come up with new proposals in the coming weeks. > For those of our community who feel threatened, and find it difficult to > continue their research in their home countries amid severe attacks on > academic freedom =E2=80=94 whether in the United States or other countrie= s facing > similar issues =E2=80=94 we encourage you to reach out to us in France or= to other > colleagues at European universities or research institutions not only to > explore potential job opportunities but also to discuss any immediate for= ms > of assistance and support that could be provided. > > Best, > > Nicolas Grimault, Mathieu Lavandier, Christian Lorenzi, Olivier Macherey, > Sabine Meunier, Emmanuel Ponsot, L=C3=A9o Varnet > --00000000000029c1d4063148e425 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Tobias,</div><div><br></div>The possible (even likely= ) misattribution=C2=A0of that Mark Twain is actually a great case in point = about how misinformation=C2=A0works in practice.<br><br>Let's say that = phrase was never uttered by Mark Twain, shall we? Well, is it something Sam= uel Clemens might have said? <a href=3D"https://quoteinvestigator.com/2016/= 12/03/misinformed/">Quote investigator tells us that he did say: "Ofte= n, the surest way to convey misinformation is to tell the strict truth"= ;</a>. So the strict truth here is: No. But the misinformation would be tha= t (a) Twain (or Clemens, or=C2=A0Pudd=E2=80=99nhead Wilson) would disagree = with the sentiment=C2=A0and that (b) it therefore follows that journalists= =C2=A0are thereby an appropriate source=C2=A0of factual information or poli= tical opinion for scientists.<div><br></div><div>What is at issue here is w= hether it is appropriate for scientists (as a group) to tie their research,= be it for pecuniary reasons or otherwise, to the latest political outrage= =C2=A0or fashion of the day as directed by journalists. Journalists who ult= imately answer to and work at the direction of editors who may or may not b= e in cahoots with all manner of national intelligence assets. <br><br>What = is <b>not</b> at issue is whether it was Thomas Jefferson, Samuel Clemens, = or Orville Hubbard who should be credited with an amusing quip that happene= d to be=C2=A0apropos to the conversation.</div><div><br></div><div>For my p= art, I would agree with <strike><a href=3D"https://rwer.wordpress.com/2013/= 09/19/why-it-is-better-to-be-roughly-right-than-precisely-wrong/">John Mayn= ard Keynes</a></strike>=C2=A0Carveth Read in that "[...] it is a mista= ke to aim at an unattainable precision. It is better to be vaguely right th= an exactly wrong" (<i>Logic, deductive and inductive</i>, 1898, p. 351= ).</div><div><br></div><div>Doug</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote g= mail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, 26 Mar = 2025 at 00:15, Teichert, Tobias <<a href=3D"mailto:000003ce21b29f12-dmar= c-request@xxxxxxxx">000003ce21b29f12-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx</= a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p= x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><d= iv class=3D"msg5221658035103159480"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div style=3D"text-align:left;text-indent:0px;font-family:Aptos,Aptos_Embed= dedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col= or:rgb(0,0,0)"> Dear colleagues, Dear Doug,</div> <div style=3D"text-align:left;text-indent:0px;font-family:Aptos,Aptos_Embed= dedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col= or:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"text-align:left;text-indent:0px;font-family:Aptos,Aptos_Embed= dedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col= or:rgb(0,0,0)"> I recently had a discussion with a friend about who got rid of the supreme = court filibuster. We had different memories of the event, so I googled it a= nd confirmed what I remembered to be true. Far from settling the point, my = friend doubled down and told me that 'they' are all just lying. He just knew that he was right but= was not able to tell me what sources he=C2=A0relied=C2=A0on so we could ch= eck them together. I later sent him an article about the case from what I g= uessed was his favorite source of news which confirmed the identical course of events. (He then agreed with the basic facts, but = moved on to blame others in the 'bigger scheme=C2=A0of things')</di= v> <div style=3D"text-align:left;text-indent:0px;font-family:Aptos,Aptos_Embed= dedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col= or:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"text-align:left;text-indent:0px;font-family:Aptos,Aptos_Embed= dedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col= or:rgb(0,0,0)"> I wholeheartedly agree that it can be hard to identify the truth these days= . But to abandon the notion of a knowable truth is deeply disturbing to me,= especially coming from fellow scientists (other than quantum physicists...= ).=C2=A0=C2=A0</div> <div style=3D"text-align:left;text-indent:0px;font-family:Aptos,Aptos_Embed= dedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col= or:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"text-align:left;text-indent:0px;font-family:Aptos,Aptos_Embed= dedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col= or:rgb(0,0,0)"> Case in point, when I googled the Mark Twain quote that was referenced by D= oug, it turns out that much of the internet believes it to be a misattribut= ion. I certainly did not have time to confirm whether or not the source I f= ound (<span style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204)"><a href=3D"https://www.snopes.co= m/fact-check/mark-twain-read-newspaper-misinformed/" id=3D"m_-6281104560052= 723414OWA4dd8b3bd-60ac-1d4f-0e67-8aadd56470df" style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204= )" target=3D"_blank">https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/mark-twain-read-news= paper-misinformed/</a></span>) is correct or not, but I firmly believe that it is an answerable question = if one were to put effort into it.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div> <div style=3D"text-align:left;text-indent:0px;font-family:Aptos,Aptos_Embed= dedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col= or:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"text-align:left;text-indent:0px;font-family:Aptos,Aptos_Embed= dedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col= or:rgb(0,0,0)"> As a funny aside,=C2=A0 the page has the following quote:</div> <div style=3D"text-align:left;text-indent:0px;font-family:Aptos,Aptos_Embed= dedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col= or:rgb(0,0,0)"> "[...] The aphorism was repeatedly used as a crutch for lazy columnist= s. Thus emerges a meta-irony which Twain would undoubtedly have appreciated= : newspaper writers writing in newspapers about the unreliability of newspa= per writing and citing an unreliable source to testify to that unreliability."</div> <div style=3D"text-align:left;text-indent:0px;font-family:Aptos,Aptos_Embed= dedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col= or:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"text-align:left;text-indent:0px;font-family:Aptos,Aptos_Embed= dedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col= or:rgb(0,0,0)"> If we believe that we live in a world where it is fundamentally not knowabl= e if Mark Twain ever wrote anything like it, then one would=C2=A0have to le= ave it at this and move on. If, on the other hand, we find ourselves turnin= g to our browsers to either confirm or disprove this information, then we must still believe in knowable truths.= =C2=A0</div> <div style=3D"text-align:left;text-indent:0px;font-family:Aptos,Aptos_Embed= dedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col= or:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"text-align:left;text-indent:0px;font-family:Aptos,Aptos_Embed= dedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col= or:rgb(0,0,0)"> Happy googling! (I hope...)</div> <div style=3D"text-align:left;text-indent:0px;font-family:Aptos,Aptos_Embed= dedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col= or:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"text-align:left;text-indent:0px;font-family:Aptos,Aptos_Embed= dedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col= or:rgb(0,0,0)"> Cheers,</div> <div style=3D"text-align:left;text-indent:0px;font-family:Aptos,Aptos_Embed= dedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col= or:rgb(0,0,0)"> Tobias</div> <div style=3D"text-align:left;text-indent:0px;font-family:Aptos,Aptos_Embed= dedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col= or:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"text-align:left;text-indent:0px;font-family:Aptos,Aptos_Embed= dedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;col= or:rgb(0,0,0)"> --</div> <div style=3D"direction:ltr;text-align:left;text-indent:0px;font-family:Apt= os,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font= -size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Dr. Tobias Teichert<br> Associate Professor of Psychiatry and Bioengineering</div> <div style=3D"direction:ltr;text-align:left;text-indent:0px;font-family:Apt= os,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font= -size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> University of Pittsburgh</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Cali= bri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div id=3D"m_-6281104560052723414appendonsend"></div> <hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%"> <div id=3D"m_-6281104560052723414divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"C= alibri, sans-serif" style=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b>= AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception <<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= LISTS.MCGILL.CA" target=3D"_blank">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a>> on beha= lf of Emmanuel Ponsot <<a href=3D"mailto:emmanuel.ponsot@xxxxxxxx" targe= t=3D"_blank">emmanuel.ponsot@xxxxxxxx</a>><br> <b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 24, 2025 5:36 PM<br> <b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">AU= DITORY@xxxxxxxx</a> <<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" = target=3D"_blank">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a>><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [AUDITORY] Silence from leaders in auditory science</fo= nt> <div>=C2=A0</div> </div> <div><font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"> <div>[Some people who received this message don't often get email from = <a href=3D"mailto:emmanuel.ponsot@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">emmanuel.pons= ot@xxxxxxxx</a>. Learn why this is important at <a href=3D"https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification" target=3D"_blank"= >https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification</a> ]<br> <br> Dear colleagues,<br> <br> In this climate of fear and uncertainty, we first want to express our stron= g support for our American colleagues who are directly or indirectly affect= ed by the current attacks from the U.S. government on scientific freedom.<b= r> <br> It's certainly worth reaffirming our values as scientists, those that a= nimate us beyond the hearing sciences community. These values are indeed th= ose espoused by the Stand Up for Science movement (<a href=3D"https://stand= upforscience.fr/" target=3D"_blank">https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outl= ook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fstandupforscience.fr%2F&data=3D05%7C02%7Ct= eichert%40PITT.EDU%7C94d13c6ecc624f759b1108dd6b56b482%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87c= c3a526112fd0d%7C1%7C0%7C638784742342135073%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0= eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjo= yfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3Dh%2B4%2Ft9o%2BBVre0%2B0hjBfQ0ZnTaue7p1K8= b%2FTQATn4I%2B8%3D&reserved=3D0</a>), to which we lend our full support. They are also the values upheld by demo= cratic nations where science can be conducted freely and without political = interference.<br> At the European level, various initiatives are emerging to provide structur= ed, in-person support and financial assistance for American researchers fac= ing these challenges, which we hope will be implemented quickly. For instan= ce, in France, the universities of Aix-Marseille (<a href=3D"https://www.univ-amu.fr/fr/public/actualites/= safe-place-science-aix-marseille-universite-prete-accueillir-les-scientifiq= ues" target=3D"_blank">https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= =3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.univ-amu.fr%2Ffr%2Fpublic%2Factualites%2Fsafe-place-sc= ience-aix-marseille-universite-prete-accueillir-les-scientifiques&data= =3D05%7C02%7Cteichert%40PITT.EDU%7C94d13c6ecc624f759b1108dd6b56b482%7C9ef9f= 489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1%7C0%7C638784742342155066%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbG= Zsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiT= WFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3D4o11kLYUz7a0braoLt26vS%2BH= O92YYq0wrPpfwOZ52U8%3D&reserved=3D0</a>), Lyon, and Paris-Sciences & Lettres have already launched the first hos= ting initiatives, but other European institutions and foundations are expec= ted to come up with new proposals in the coming weeks.<br> For those of our community who feel threatened, and find it difficult to co= ntinue their research in their home countries amid severe attacks on academ= ic freedom =E2=80=94 whether in the United States or other countries facing= similar issues =E2=80=94 we encourage you to reach out to us in France or to other colleagues at European universities or res= earch institutions not only to explore potential job opportunities but also= to discuss any immediate forms of assistance and support that could be pro= vided.<br> <br> Best,<br> <br> Nicolas Grimault, Mathieu Lavandier, Christian Lorenzi, Olivier Macherey, S= abine Meunier, Emmanuel Ponsot, L=C3=A9o Varnet<br> </div> </span></font></div> </div> </div></blockquote></div> --00000000000029c1d4063148e425--