Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Silence from leaders in auditory science From: Gunter Kreutz <gunter.kreutz@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2025 08:32:42 +0100--000000000000e9eaeb0630fd7ee1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Scott, dear list, Yes, I agree that empathy and patience is more needed than ever, but suggesting to act individually is the worst advice I have read in a long time. Sorry. The US democracy could have reached a dead end, for sure. It is vital to reestablish the divide of powers between legislative, executive, and judicative, simple as that. To that end, people need to stand together, equally peacefully and decisively. Otherwise, it looks inevitable that society and science are doomed. Yes, I like this list for all its scientific discussions and information. I cannot wait to resume to that. But how? I recently visited Mittelberg-Dorau, where an engineer and SS-officer named Wernher von Braun sparked the idea to build facilities in a mountain by slave workers in order to continue building the V1 and V2 missiles in the 1940s, when Peenem=C3=BCnde was no more safe. In the first six months of th= is operation 6000 out of 12000 workers died in horrible circumstances due to 8 degrees celsius, 90% humidity and no appropriate nutrition and clothing for their 12 hour shifts, not to mention fresh air in the mountain. Wernher von Braun and the villagers in Nordhausen must have witnessed that. von Braun was there several times, photographed in SS uniform. In this camp, many more people suffered and died. The fumes and smells of the crematory must have been noted all around. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun Note that his role in the concentration camp Mittelberg-Dorau (a satellite camp of Buchenwald) is not mentioned in the English wiki, but in the German one https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun under 2.3. It is also well documented in the Museum in Mittelberg-Dorau. Visits are free of charge. Instead the English wiki propels the narrative of fear that prevented Wernher von Braun from turning against the Nazis. Far from that. He was a Nazi by conviction. There is no single case documented of even a Nazi guard refusing to do his work was ever severely punished. That narrative is just wrong. Wernher von Braun was so successful that the US hired him later to run the Apollo program as we all know. And now, 80 years later, we must realize that one to-become-fascist regime liberated another fascist regime. What an irony! Cheers, Gunter Am So., 23. M=C3=A4rz 2025 um 05:24 Uhr schrieb J. Scott Merritt < alsauser@xxxxxxxx>: > I am saddened to see the Auditory List devolving into a political > battleground. If additional political "discourse" is needed, there is > certainly no shortage of other places on the web where it can be found. > > From my perspective, the -central- problem with US politics is the > increasing polarization of the electorate. Gone are the moderate > statesmen/women that seek a fair compromise acceptable to most. I put th= e > blame for this situation firmly at the feet of modern media - where all o= f > the incentives are singularly aligned with increased "engagement" of thei= r > viewers. > > Given that view point, I disagree with the premise that each side should > put as much effort as possible into organizing their resistance and furth= er > arguing their points. Instead, I believe we need more people to listen > carefully, with patience and empathy, to the grievances of all sides in > hopes of finding a middle ground that works for all. > > I would venture to say that the majority of the US electorate would agree > that the massive debt that US has run up is a significant problem, and > would further agree that reduced scientific research funding is an > appropriate (albeit small) step to address that problem. As such, it wou= ld > be hard to argue that reduced scientific research funding, by itself, is = an > assault on American democracy. > > It can certainly be argued that the methods apparently being used to > reduce funding are crude and not well prioritized, with an emphasis on > haste rather than wisdom. Unfortunately, I fear that this will remain th= e > case while the electorate is so heavily polarized and we careen viciously > to the left or right after each election. > > So ... my suggestions is NOT to "put as much effort as possible into > organising resistance to this coup" ... but rather to engage -individuall= y- > with those of differing viewpoints, with patience and empathy, in hopes o= f > reaching a better shared vision and understanding. > > > On Wed, 19 Mar 2025 08:25:25 +0000 > Petter Kallioinen <000001c5645d28b7-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > I am writing from Stockholm following what I take to be the fall of > American democracy. My advice is to not the resist the urgency of this > situation and not hope for the best. What I would suggest is for everyone > to minimize their ordinary work on a stable level and put as much effort = as > possible into organising resistance to this coup. Everyone! > --000000000000e9eaeb0630fd7ee1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Dear Scott, dear list,</div><div><br></div><div>Yes, = I agree that empathy and patience is more needed than ever, but suggesting = to act individually is the worst advice I have read in a long time. Sorry.<= /div><div><br></div><div>The US democracy could have reached a dead end, fo= r sure. It is vital to reestablish the divide of powers between legislative= , executive, and judicative, simple as that. To that end, people need to st= and together, equally peacefully and decisively. Otherwise, it looks inevit= able that society and science are doomed.</div><div><br></div><div>Yes, I l= ike this list for all its scientific discussions and information. I cannot = wait to resume to that. But how? <br></div><div><br></div><div>I recently v= isited Mittelberg-Dorau, where an engineer and SS-officer named Wernher von= Braun sparked the idea to build facilities in a mountain by slave workers = in order to continue building the V1 and V2 missiles in the 1940s, when Pee= nem=C3=BCnde was no more safe. In the first six months of this operation 60= 00 out of 12000 workers died in horrible circumstances due to 8 degrees cel= sius, 90% humidity and no appropriate nutrition and clothing for their 12 h= our shifts, not to mention fresh air in the mountain. Wernher von Braun and= the villagers in Nordhausen must have witnessed that. von Braun was there = several times, photographed in SS uniform. In this camp, many more people s= uffered and died. The fumes and smells of the crematory must have been note= d all around. <br></div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia= .org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Brau= n</a></div><div><br></div><div>Note that his role in the concentration camp= Mittelberg-Dorau (a satellite camp of Buchenwald) is not mentioned in the = English wiki, but in the German one</div><div></div><div><a href=3D"https:/= /de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun">https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wer= nher_von_Braun</a></div><div>under 2.3. It is also well documented in the M= useum in Mittelberg-Dorau. Visits are free of charge.</div><div><br></div><= div>Instead the English wiki propels the narrative of fear that prevented Wernher von Braun from turning against the Nazis. Far from that. He was a = Nazi by conviction. There is no single case documented of even a Nazi guard= refusing to do his work was ever severely punished. That narrative is just= wrong.</div><div><br></div><div>Wernher von Braun was so successful that t= he US hired him later to run the Apollo program as we all know. And now, 80= years later, we must realize that one to-become-fascist regime liberated a= nother fascist regime. What an irony!</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div= ><div>Gunter</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></d= iv><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></d= iv><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></d= iv></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"l= tr" class=3D"gmail_attr">Am So., 23. M=C3=A4rz 2025 um 05:24=C2=A0Uhr schri= eb J. Scott Merritt <<a href=3D"mailto:alsauser@xxxxxxxx">alsauser= @xxxxxxxx</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style= =3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding= -left:1ex">I am saddened to see the Auditory List devolving into a politica= l battleground.=C2=A0 If additional political "discourse" is need= ed, there is certainly no shortage of other places on the web where it can = be found.<br> <br> From my perspective, the -central- problem with US politics is the increasi= ng polarization of the electorate.=C2=A0 Gone are the moderate statesmen/wo= men that seek a fair compromise acceptable to most.=C2=A0 I put the blame f= or this situation firmly at the feet of modern media - where all of the inc= entives are singularly aligned with increased "engagement" of the= ir viewers.<br> <br> Given that view point, I disagree with the premise that each side should pu= t as much effort as possible into organizing their resistance and further a= rguing their points.=C2=A0 Instead, I believe we need more people to listen= carefully, with patience and empathy, to the grievances of all sides in ho= pes of finding a middle ground that works for all.<br> <br> I would venture to say that the majority of the US electorate would agree t= hat the massive debt that US has run up is a significant problem, and would= further agree that reduced scientific research funding is an appropriate (= albeit small) step to address that problem.=C2=A0 As such, it would be hard= to argue that reduced scientific research funding, by itself, is an assaul= t on American democracy.<br> <br> It can certainly be argued that the methods apparently being used to reduce= funding are crude and not well prioritized, with an emphasis on haste rath= er than wisdom.=C2=A0 Unfortunately, I fear that this will remain the case = while the electorate is so heavily polarized and we careen viciously to the= left or right after each election.<br> <br> So ... my suggestions is NOT to "put as much effort as possible into o= rganising resistance to this coup" ... but rather to engage -individua= lly- with those of differing viewpoints, with patience and empathy, in hope= s of reaching a better shared vision and understanding.<br> <br> <br> On Wed, 19 Mar 2025 08:25:25 +0000<br> Petter Kallioinen <<a href=3D"mailto:000001c5645d28b7-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx= S.MCGILL.CA" target=3D"_blank">000001c5645d28b7-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx= CA</a>> wrote:<br> <br> > I am writing from Stockholm following what I take to be the fall of Am= erican democracy. My advice is to not the resist the urgency of this situat= ion and not hope for the best. What I would suggest is for everyone to mini= mize their ordinary work on a stable level and put as much effort as possib= le into organising resistance to this coup. Everyone!<br> </blockquote></div> --000000000000e9eaeb0630fd7ee1--