Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Ifrasubs ruin hearing protection use cases From: Peter Lennox <plennox@xxxxxxxx> Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2024 15:30:03 +0000--Apple-Mail-A74946B9-FE2C-48BF-A708-51C8492994D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At those frequencies, might bone-and-tissue conduction, direct to the cochle= a confuse the issue? Sent from my iPhone > On 22 Mar 2024, at 07:59, Brian FG Katz (SU) <brian.katz@xxxxxxxx= te.fr> wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > If your question is how to better suppress low frequency sounds, active no= ise control works far better at lower frequencies while passive methods work= far better at high frequencies.=20 >=20 > -- > Brian FG Katz > Equipe LAM : Lutheries Acoustique Musique > Sorbonne Universit=C3=A9, CNRS, Institut =E2=88=82'Alembert >=20 >=20 > -------- Original message -------- > From: Matt Flax <flatmax@xxxxxxxx> > Date: 3/22/24 05:43 (GMT+01:00) > To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx > Subject: [AUDITORY] Ifrasubs ruin hearing protection use cases >=20 > Most modern large PA setups now include infrasubs (< 20Hz amplification) > by default - and certainly most large venues do too. >=20 > This it turns out is a conundrum for hearing protection. For example my > "flattened" ear plugs give 13 dB or more hearing protection, but they > have a lower frequency limit. This means that I am still hearing > un-attenuated low frequency music. This may not seem like a problem, > however it suppresses the melodic (13 dB dampened) music when strong sub > bass is present - to the point where it sounds like you are listening to > gated sub bass with little else on top. >=20 > At this point I would like to steer this conversation away from a > discussion on what "quality music is" and keep it on the track of > suppression and if necessary then masking. Sometimes I feel that > psychoacoustics is the statistical model (AI) of hearing. >=20 > As frequency tuning curves typically have lower slope for lower > frequencies, the ear's physiology suppresses higher frequency signal > power. In the psychoacoustics world the frequency spreading functions of > masking models generate the upwards (frequency) spread of masking (as a > shameless plug, see Figure 3 here : > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Matthew-Flax/publication/3898361_Hybr= id_auditory_masking_models/links/61dc0e7e4e4aff4a642f9514/Hybrid-auditory-ma= sking-models.pdf) >=20 > Is this a commonly discussed issue yet ? I can't think of practical ways > to improve the sound quality of "flattened hearing protection devices" > at live venues with infrasubs, is anyone aware of any ? >=20 > Matt --Apple-Mail-A74946B9-FE2C-48BF-A708-51C8492994D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D= utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">At those frequencies, might bone-and-tissue= conduction, direct to the cochlea confuse the issue?<br id=3D"lineBreakAtBe= ginningOfSignature"><div dir=3D"ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div><div dir=3D"lt= r"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On 22 Mar 2024, at 07:59, Brian FG Katz (SU= ) <brian.katz@xxxxxxxx> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div= ><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<meta http-equiv=3D"Con= tent-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUTF-8"><div dir=3D"auto">If your q= uestion is how to better suppress low frequency sounds, active noise control= works far better at lower frequencies while passive methods work far better= at high frequencies. </div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div id=3D"comp= oser_signature" dir=3D"auto"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"te= xt/html; charset=3DUTF-8">--<div dir=3D"auto">Brian FG Katz</div><div dir=3D= "auto">Equipe LAM : Lutheries Acoustique Musique</div><div dir=3D"auto">Sorb= onne Universit=C3=A9, CNRS, Institut =E2=88=82'Alembert</div></div><div dir=3D= "auto"><br></div><div><br></div><div align=3D"left" dir=3D"auto" style=3D"fo= nt-size:100%;color:#000000"><div>-------- Original message --------</div><di= v>From: Matt Flax <flatmax@xxxxxxxx> </div><div>Date: 3/22/24 05:4= 3 (GMT+01:00) </div><div>To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx </div><div>Subject: [= AUDITORY] Ifrasubs ruin hearing protection use cases </div><div><br></div></= div>Most modern large PA setups now include infrasubs (< 20Hz amplificati= on) <br>by default - and certainly most large venues do too.<br><br>This it t= urns out is a conundrum for hearing protection. For example my <br>"flattene= d" ear plugs give 13 dB or more hearing protection, but they <br>have a lowe= r frequency limit. This means that I am still hearing <br>un-attenuated low f= requency music. This may not seem like a problem, <br>however it suppresses t= he melodic (13 dB dampened) music when strong sub <br>bass is present -= to the point where it sounds like you are listening to <br>gated sub bass w= ith little else on top.<br><br>At this point I would like to steer this conv= ersation away from a <br>discussion on what "quality music is" and keep it o= n the track of <br>suppression and if necessary then masking. Sometimes I fe= el that <br>psychoacoustics is the statistical model (AI) of hearing.<br><br= >As frequency tuning curves typically have lower slope for lower <br>frequen= cies, the ear's physiology suppresses higher frequency signal <br>power. In t= he psychoacoustics world the frequency spreading functions of <br>masking mo= dels generate the upwards (frequency) spread of masking (as a <br>shameless p= lug, see Figure 3 here : <br>https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Matthew-Fl= ax/publication/3898361_Hybrid_auditory_masking_models/links/61dc0e7e4e4aff4a= 642f9514/Hybrid-auditory-masking-models.pdf)<br><br>Is this a commonly discu= ssed issue yet ? I can't think of practical ways <br>to improve the sound qu= ality of "flattened hearing protection devices" <br>at live venues with infr= asubs, is anyone aware of any ?<br><br>Matt<br></div></blockquote></body></h= tml>= --Apple-Mail-A74946B9-FE2C-48BF-A708-51C8492994D0--