Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Estimation of auditory sensory thresholds from below: any evidence? From: Brent Edwards <brent@xxxxxxxx> Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2023 08:46:32 +1100--655d2543_322a42f2_3554 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline SDT uses sensitivity, not thresholds, so a shorthand might be something l= ike =E2=80=9Cdetection sensitivity for participants with no hearing loss = was -5dB and sensitivity for participants with hearing loss was +3dB=E2=80= =9D, where sensitivity is defined elsewhere, e.g. d prime of 1. =E2=80=94Brent On 21 Nov 2023 at 7:37=E2=80=AFPM +1100, Oberfeld-Twistel, Daniel <oberfe= ld=40UNI-MAINZ.DE>, wrote: > Absolutely, that=E2=80=99s why I put =E2=80=9Cthreshold=E2=80=9D in quo= tation marks in my post. It=E2=80=99s important to keep in mind that sinc= e the seminal works on the application of signal detection theory to psyc= hophysics by Tanner, Green, Swets etc. in the 1960ies, we should always b= e aware that there is no =E2=80=9Cthreshold=E2=80=9D in the sense that st= imuli below the threshold are impossible to perceive while those above ar= e always perceived. An important point the SDT makes is that the differen= ce between the perceptual representation =C2=A0of sub- and suprathreshold= stimuli is not qualitative but quantitative. > > However, I know no catchy but less confusing replacements terms for =E2= =80=9Cthreshold=E2=80=9D (e.g., =E2=80=9Csound level corresponding to 71%= correct detection=E2=80=9D is certainly not an option =F0=9F=98=89 ) =E2= =80=93 does anyone=3F > > Daniel > > =46rom: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception < > On Behalf Of Les= Bernstein > Sent: Monday, November 20, 2023 4:21 PM > To: AUDITORY=40LISTS.MCGILL.CA > Subject: Re: Estimation of auditory sensory thresholds from below: any = evidence=3F > > Of course, there is no auditory =22threshold=22 and Dr. Dennis Mc=46add= en has argued for years that the use of the term to indicate the magnitud= e of the independent variable corresponding to a given level of performan= ce is to confuse the historical background.=C2=A0 Although he is quite co= rrect, I have no illusions that people will retire the term.=C2=A0 As for= starting from =22above,=22 I agree with Dick.=C2=A0 It's a more efficien= t way to conduct an experiment.=C2=A0 Still, in an objective psychophysic= al task with feedback, one could start from below.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Taking the= 2-down, 1-up Levitt tracker as an example, in practice, starting from be= low tends to result in a bunch of =22wasted=22 trials.=C2=A0 The method o= f limits is, of course, a biased psychophysical procedure that has its ow= n set of issues. > > Les > > -- > Leslie R. Bernstein, Ph.D. =7C Professor Emeritus > Depts. of Neuroscience and Surgery (Otolaryngology) =7C UConn School of= Medicine > 263 =46armington Avenue, =46armington, CT 06030-3401 > Office: 860.679.4622 =7C =46ax: 860.679.2495 > > > > On 11/18/2023 12:30 AM, Richard =46. Lyon wrote: > > *** Attention: This is an external email. Use caution responding, ope= ning attachments or clicking on links. *** > > I think the subject needs to feel like they're doing the job well, so= starting easy (above threshold) makes sense.=C2=A0 And they get to know = very well what signal to listen for. > > > > If you approach from below, they don't know what signal to expect, so= may not be in an =22optimal detector=22 state of mind. > > > > Dick > > > > > > On =46ri, Nov 17, 2023 at 9:19=E2=80=AFPM Massimo Grassi <massimo.gra= ssi=40unipd.it> wrote: > > > quote=5Ftype > > > Dear all, > > > > > > I was recently writing a paper about threshold estimation in hearin= g and at some point=C2=A0I stopped. > > > > > > Let suppose you are estimating a frequency discrimination threshold= with a classic 2-down 1-up staircase rule (Levitt, 1971). Theoretically,= you could approach the threshold from below or from above, I repeat this= every year to 1st year students=C2=A0when I teach them the method of lim= its=21 In practice, however, in psychoacoustics we rarely-to-never approa= ch the threshold from below. > > > > > > Is there any reason for this =22tradition=22=3F I know=C2=A0the psy= chometric function should be symmetric below and above threshold=21 But t= his does not explain the =22tradition=22=21 > > > > > > All the best from =22it is almost winter=22 North East Italy. > > > m > > --655d2543_322a42f2_3554 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="655d2543_56d9fc2d_3554" --655d2543_56d9fc2d_3554 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline <html xmlns=3D=22http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml=22> <head> <title></title> </head> <body> <div name=3D=22messageBodySection=22> <div dir=3D=22auto=22>SDT uses sensitivity, not thresholds, so a shorthan= d might be something like =E2=80=9Cdetection sensitivity for participants= with no hearing loss was -5dB and sensitivity for participants with hear= ing loss was +3dB=E2=80=9D, where sensitivity is defined elsewhere, e.g. = d prime of 1.<br /> <br /> =E2=80=94Brent</div> </div> <div name=3D=22messageReplySection=22>On 21 Nov 2023 at 7:37=E2=80=AFPM += 1100, Oberfeld-Twistel, Daniel <oberfeld=40UNI-MAINZ.DE>, wrote:<br= /> <blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 style=3D=22border-left-color: grey; border-= left-width: thin; border-left-style: solid; margin: 5px 5px;padding-left:= 10px;=22> <div class=3D=22WordSection1=22> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22Calibri=22><spa= n lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-= US=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>Absolutely, that=E2=80=99s why I put =E2=80=9C= threshold=E2=80=9D in quotation marks in my post. It=E2=80=99s important = to keep in mind that since the seminal works on the application of signal= detection theory to psychophysics by Tanner, Green, Swets etc. in the 19= 60ies, we should always be aware that there is no =E2=80=9Cthreshold=E2=80= =9D in the sense that stimuli below the threshold are impossible to perce= ive while those above are always perceived. An important point the SDT ma= kes is that the difference between the perceptual representation &=23160;= of sub- and suprathreshold stimuli is not qualitative but quantitative.</= span></font></p> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22Calibri=22><spa= n lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-= US=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>&=23160;</span></font></p> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22Calibri=22><spa= n lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-= US=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>However, I know no catchy but less confusing= replacements terms for =E2=80=9Cthreshold=E2=80=9D (e.g., =E2=80=9Csound= level corresponding to 71% correct detection=E2=80=9D is certainly not a= n option</span></font> <font face=3D=22Segoe UI Emoji=22><span lang=3D=22= EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif;mso= -fareast-language:EN-US=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>=F0=9F=98=89</span></fo= nt> <span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22mso-fareast-language:EN-US=22 xml= :lang=3D=22EN-US=22>) =E2=80=93 does anyone=3F</span></p> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22Calibri=22><spa= n lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-= US=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>&=23160;</span></font></p> <div> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22Calibri=22><spa= n lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardco= ntextual=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>Daniel</span></font> <span lang=3D=22E= N-US=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22></span></p> </div> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22Calibri=22><spa= n lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-= US=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>&=23160;</span></font></p> <div style=3D=22border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm = 0cm 4.0pt=22> <div> <div style=3D=22border:none;border-top:solid =23E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0p= t 0cm 0cm 0cm=22> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><b><font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22Calibri=22><= span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt;font-weight:bold=22 x= ml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>=46rom:</span></font></b> <span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 = xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception < &g= t; <b><span style=3D=22font-weight:bold=22>On Behalf Of</span></b> Les Be= rnstein<br /> <b><span style=3D=22font-weight:bold=22>Sent:</span></b> Monday, November= 20, 2023 4:21 PM<br /> <b><span style=3D=22font-weight:bold=22>To:</span></b> AUDITORY=40LISTS.M= CGILL.CA<br /> <b><span style=3D=22font-weight:bold=22>Subject:</span></b> Re: Estimatio= n of auditory sensory thresholds from below: any evidence=3F</span></p> </div> </div> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22Calibri=22><spa= n lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22= >&=23160;</span></font></p> <div> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22Helvetica=22><s= pan style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-se= rif=22>Of course, there is no auditory =22threshold=22 and Dr. Dennis Mc=46= adden has argued for years that the use of the term to indicate the magni= tude of the independent variable corresponding to a given level of perfor= mance is to confuse the historical background.&=23160; Although he is qui= te correct, I have no illusions that people will retire the term.&=23160;= As for starting from =22above,=22 I agree with Dick.&=23160; It's a more= efficient way to conduct an experiment.&=23160; Still, in an objective p= sychophysical task with feedback, one could start from below.&=23160;&=23= 160; Taking the 2-down, 1-up Levitt tracker as an example, in practice, s= tarting from below tends to result in a bunch of =22wasted=22 trials.&=23= 160; The method of limits is, of course, a biased psychophysical procedur= e that has its own set of issues.<br /> <br /> Les<br /> <br /></span></font> --<br /> <b><font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22Arial=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.= 0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;font-weight:bold=22>Leslie R= . Bernstein, Ph.D.</span></font></b> <b><font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22Ar= ial=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sa= ns-serif;font-weight:bold=22>=7C</span></font></b> <font size=3D=222=22 f= ace=3D=22Arial=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ari= al",sans-serif=22>Professor Emeritus</span></font><br /> <font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22Arial=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt= ;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif=22>Depts. of Neuroscience and S= urgery (Otolaryngology) =7C UConn School of Medicine</span></font><br /> <font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22Arial=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt= ;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif=22>263 =46armington Avenue, =46= armington, CT 06030-3401</span></font><br /> <font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22Arial=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt= ;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif=22>Office: 860.679.4622 =7C =46= ax: 860.679.2495<br /> <br /> <img width=3D=22125=22 height=3D=2248=22 style=3D=22width:1.3009in;height= :.5in=22 id=3D=22Bild=5Fx0020=5F1=22 src=3D=22cid:image001.png=4001DA1C5A= .1920D=4630=22 /></span></font><br /> <br /> On 11/18/2023 12:30 AM, Richard =46. Lyon wrote:</p> </div> <blockquote style=3D=22margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt=22> <div> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22 align=3D=22center=22 style=3D=22text-align:cen= ter;background:=23D5EA=46=46=22><font size=3D=223=22 color=3D=22red=22 fa= ce=3D=22Calibri=22><span style=3D=22font-size:12.0pt;color:red=22>*** Att= ention: This is an external email. Use caution responding, opening attach= ments or clicking on links. ***</span></font></p> </div> <div> <div> <div> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><font size=3D=223=22 face=3D=22Calibri=22><spa= n style=3D=22font-size:12.0pt=22>I think the subject needs to feel like t= hey're doing the job well, so starting easy (above threshold) makes sense= .&=23160; And they get to know very well what signal to listen for.</span= ></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><font size=3D=223=22 face=3D=22Calibri=22><spa= n style=3D=22font-size:12.0pt=22>&=23160;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><font size=3D=223=22 face=3D=22Calibri=22><spa= n style=3D=22font-size:12.0pt=22>If you approach from below, they don't k= now what signal to expect, so may not be in an =22optimal detector=22 sta= te of mind.</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><font size=3D=223=22 face=3D=22Calibri=22><spa= n style=3D=22font-size:12.0pt=22>&=23160;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><font size=3D=223=22 face=3D=22Calibri=22><spa= n style=3D=22font-size:12.0pt=22>Dick</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><font size=3D=223=22 face=3D=22Calibri=22><spa= n style=3D=22font-size:12.0pt=22>&=23160;</span></font></p> </div> </div> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22Calibri=22><spa= n style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt=22>&=23160;</span></font></p> <div> <div> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22Calibri=22><spa= n style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt=22>On =46ri, Nov 17, 2023 at 9:19=E2=80=AFP= M Massimo Grassi <<a href=3D=22mailto:massimo.grassi=40unipd.it=22>mas= simo.grassi=40unipd.it</a>> wrote:</span></font></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D=22border:none;border-left:solid =23CCCCCC 1.0pt;padd= ing:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm=22> <div> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22Calibri=22><spa= n style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt=22>Dear all,</span></font></p> <div> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22Calibri=22><spa= n style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt=22>&=23160;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22Calibri=22><spa= n style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt=22>I was recently writing a paper about thr= eshold estimation in hearing and at some point&=23160;I stopped.&=23160;<= /span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22Calibri=22><spa= n style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt=22>&=23160;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22Calibri=22><spa= n style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt=22>Let suppose you are estimating a frequen= cy discrimination threshold with a classic 2-down 1-up staircase rule (Le= vitt, 1971). Theoretically, you could approach the threshold from below o= r from above, I repeat this every year to 1st year students&=23160;when I= teach them the method of limits=21 In practice, however, in psychoacoust= ics we rarely-to-never approach the threshold from below.</span></font></= p> </div> <div> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22Calibri=22><spa= n style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt=22>&=23160;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22Calibri=22><spa= n style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt=22>Is there any reason for this =22traditio= n=22=3F I know&=23160;the psychometric function should be symmetric below= and above threshold=21 But this does not explain the =22tradition=22=21<= /span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22Calibri=22><spa= n style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt=22>&=23160;</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22Calibri=22><spa= n style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt=22>All the best from =22it is almost winter= =22 North East Italy.</span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22Calibri=22><spa= n style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt=22>m</span></font></p> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> </div> </blockquote> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22 style=3D=22margin-bottom:12.0pt=22><font size=3D= =222=22 face=3D=22Calibri=22><span style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt=22>&=23160= ;</span></font></p> <div> <p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22Calibri=22><spa= n style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt=22>&=23160;</span></font></p> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> </body> </html> --655d2543_56d9fc2d_3554 Content-Type: image/png Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <image001.png@xxxxxxxx> Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image001.png" iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAH0AAAAwCAMAAAALmIWlAAAAGXRFWHRTb2Z0d2FyZQBBZG9iZSBJ bWFnZVJlYWR5ccllPAAAADNQTFRFKzVYHCZM4eLn8PHzpKi30dTbaG+IlZqrs7fDWWB8O0Nkd32U wsXPSlJwhoufDRhA////A68jmAAAABF0Uk5T/////////////////////wAlrZliAAACYklEQVR4 2uzY22KDIAwAUC7e6gjw/187gUC4OetaupflaTXKWSuBKNMuJptC+QMCP20auPHBQCubBWU46K24 uB7NfZ58ZqaMP8D8AEBHtT/goXnB8WPwBf8r1WYUXWxUOZobHcJXIMcfONclmE4s0lrRzYBIOjvT jX5WV6YbP2ZQJ6TWjfiAbuYzHW7p+xpuolQrP83sjQ5nupnu6LqaJ92MbnSznulcfkBHpNXNY6y+ c0JKnWX1eFeflQt5qcNESKnrQMrf6LSAXeiWkEoXdOU4nZBKxzPnoTohtW5ZZyK8W09Io6tYjyP1 iDS6XbAeh815S0irS6zHUfXuB0Ok1S3W41AdEWh1/Nb7UD1bWytd0LY4ThdnerYbBJ1taT5XBmy4 J8mNnWagp5fbba6HeiTdneK6vNgoFj0EhyO4eSZT6AlpdNXoNzqYi94GbIU0eqhHp3d5drRf4heZ Uo9Iq8vYptup6VB37H6m/W6m0hFpdaxH3/yK9cHpVq5Zy59n2GMV/QxPGdV9NElPE9njyOozsfWW Kq6j7bLuw97KPBnM/mX86//6n+tH/yLKP7AUXcyd80Lx53WnspB47ty5qKND1gLockfIFzHR7srp Q7X0+6GgHPNFXedPyaN1CPFli71z+ZBeTxbcI2RXxwOQj/lW/Ui610Z6gA4a32WRrssXYbO76V/Z y6FLnZVj/qCnqGcdZE1DeFKcntWrMV/RZXCh7B/fpF/+8tQQx6J74y9/Oeuyrm75+Jyf8oKWH9CL 1SYNJtJ91HTOAD2fdjPN9UcsumwmDNYXqvPtOLa9pH8LMACnoV0siZAyOAAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== --655d2543_56d9fc2d_3554-- --655d2543_322a42f2_3554--