Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Estimation of auditory sensory thresholds from below: any evidence? From: Ken Grant <ken.w.grant@xxxxxxxx> Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2023 09:33:39 -0500--000000000000be9256060aaa7de8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000be9254060aaa7de7" --000000000000be9254060aaa7de7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree that starting the track with easy trials have proved to be beneficial. However, this is when each trial presents a different token, and the cues used by listeners change throughout the track. Coming from below and repeating the same token over and over treats every speech (sentence) as it=E2=80=99s own separate track, and very few sentence= s are needed. This may be necessary if the study compares several different conditions. The initial trial is typically below the targeted performance level and subjects have no trouble quickly moving on from a very poor SNR to something better. To speed things up further, after the first sentence is presented we start the next sentence at the previous SNR threshold minus 5 dB (may have to be closer to 10 dB if the next sentence presented is too easy and the targeted performance level exceeded). This ensures that the first time a sentence is played, recognition performance is below the targeted performance level. Ken W. Grant, Ph.D. Chief, Scientific and Clinical Studies Section America Building, Room 5601 Walter Reed National Military Medical Center 4954 North Palmer Road Bethesda, MD 20889-5630 OFFICE: 301-319-7043 CELL: 301-919-2957 kenneth.w.grant.civ@xxxxxxxx ken.w.grant@xxxxxxxx On Tue, Nov 21, 2023 at 12:13=E2=80=AFAM Les Bernstein <lbernstein@xxxxxxxx= > wrote: > Of course, there is no auditory "threshold" and Dr. Dennis McFadden has > argued for years that the use of the term to indicate the magnitude of th= e > independent variable corresponding to a given level of performance is to > confuse the historical background. Although he is quite correct, I have = no > illusions that people will retire the term. As for starting from "above,= " > I agree with Dick. It's a more efficient way to conduct an experiment. > Still, in an objective psychophysical task with feedback, one could start > from below. Taking the 2-down, 1-up Levitt tracker as an example, in > practice, starting from below tends to result in a bunch of "wasted" > trials. The method of limits is, of course, a biased psychophysical > procedure that has its own set of issues. > > > Les > > -- > *Leslie R. Bernstein, Ph.D. **| *Professor Emeritus > Depts. of Neuroscience and Surgery (Otolaryngology) | UConn School of > Medicine > 263 Farmington Avenue, Farmington, CT 06030-3401 > Office: 860.679.4622 | Fax: 860.679.2495 > > > > On 11/18/2023 12:30 AM, Richard F. Lyon wrote: > > *** Attention: This is an external email. Use caution responding, opening > attachments or clicking on links. *** > I think the subject needs to feel like they're doing the job well, so > starting easy (above threshold) makes sense. And they get to know very > well what signal to listen for. > > If you approach from below, they don't know what signal to expect, so may > not be in an "optimal detector" state of mind. > > Dick > > > On Fri, Nov 17, 2023 at 9:19=E2=80=AFPM Massimo Grassi <massimo.grassi@xxxxxxxx= ipd.it> > wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> I was recently writing a paper about threshold estimation in hearing and >> at some point I stopped. >> >> Let suppose you are estimating a frequency discrimination threshold with >> a classic 2-down 1-up staircase rule (Levitt, 1971). Theoretically, you >> could approach the threshold from below or from above, I repeat this eve= ry >> year to 1st year students when I teach them the method of limits! In >> practice, however, in psychoacoustics we rarely-to-never approach the >> threshold from below. >> >> Is there any reason for this "tradition"? I know the psychometric >> function should be symmetric below and above threshold! But this does no= t >> explain the "tradition"! >> >> All the best from "it is almost winter" North East Italy. >> m >> > > > > --000000000000be9254060aaa7de7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"auto">I agree that starting the track with easy trials have pro= ved to be beneficial. However, this is when each trial presents a different= token, and the cues used by listeners change throughout the track.=C2=A0= =C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Coming from below= and repeating the same token over and over =C2=A0treats every speech (sent= ence) as it=E2=80=99s own separate track, and very few sentences are needed= . This may be necessary if the study compares several different conditions.= =C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">The initial trial= is typically below the targeted performance level and subjects have no tro= uble quickly moving on from a very poor SNR to something better. To speed t= hings up further, after the first sentence is presented we start the next s= entence at the previous SNR threshold minus 5 dB (may have to be closer to = 10 dB if the next sentence presented is too easy and the targeted performan= ce level exceeded). This ensures that the first time a sentence is played, = recognition performance is below the targeted performance level.=C2=A0</div= ><div dir=3D"auto"><br clear=3D"all"><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr" cla= ss=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Ken W. Grant, Ph.= D.<br>Chief, Scientific and Clinical Studies Section<br>America Building, R= oom 5601<br>Walter Reed National Military Medical Center<br>4954 North Palm= er Road<br>Bethesda, MD 20889-5630<br>=C2=A0<br>OFFICE:=C2=A0 301-319-7043<= br>CELL:=C2=A0 301-919-2957<br>=C2=A0<br><a href=3D"mailto:kenneth.w.grant.= civ@xxxxxxxx">kenneth.w.grant.civ@xxxxxxxx</a><br><a href=3D"mailto:ken= .w.grant@xxxxxxxx">ken.w.grant@xxxxxxxx</a></div></div></div><div><br></d= iv><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr= ">On Tue, Nov 21, 2023 at 12:13=E2=80=AFAM Les Bernstein <<a href=3D"mai= lto:lbernstein@xxxxxxxx">lbernstein@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br></div><block= quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc= solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u> =20 <div> <div><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Of course, = there is no auditory "threshold" and Dr. Dennis McFadden has argued f= or years that the use of the term to indicate the magnitude of the independent variable corresponding to a given level of performance is to confuse the historical background.=C2=A0 Although he is quite correct, I have no illusions that people will retire the term.=C2=A0 As for starting from "above," I agree wit= h Dick.=C2=A0 It's a more efficient way to conduct an experiment.=C2=A0 Still= , in an objective psychophysical task with feedback, one could start from below.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Taking the 2-down, 1-up Levitt tracker as a= n example, in practice, starting from below tends to result in a bunch of "wasted" trials.=C2=A0 The method of limits is, = of course, a biased psychophysical procedure that has its own set of issues.</fo= nt></div></div><div><div><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-se= rif"><br> <br> Les<br> <br> </font>-- <br> <b><span>Leslie R. Bernstein, Ph.D. </span></b><b><span>| </span></b>= <span>Professor Emeritus</span><span></span><span></span><br> <span></span> <span> Depts. of Neuroscience and Surgery (Otolaryngology) | UConn School of Medicine </span><br> <span></span><span>263 Farmington Avenue, Farmington, CT 06030-3401</span><br> <span></span><span>Office: 860.679.4622 | Fax: 860.679.2495<br> <br> <img src=3D"cid:ii_18bf237e8c0ad7999131" alt=3D"" style=3D"width:12= 5px;max-width:100%"></span><br> <br> On 11/18/2023 12:30 AM, Richard F. Lyon wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> =20 <div style=3D"background-color:#d5eaff;padding:.8em"> <div style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:#ff0000;text-align:center;font-f= amily:'Calibri',sans-serif"> *** Attention: This is an external email. Use caution responding, opening attachments or clicking on links. ***</div> </div> <div> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">I think th= e subject needs to feel like they're doing the job well, so starting easy (above threshold) makes sense.=C2=A0 And they get to know very well what signal to listen for.</div> <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br> </div> <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">If you approach from below, they don't know what signal to expect, so may not be in an "optimal detector" state of mind.= </div> <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br> </div> <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Dick</div> <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br> </div> </div> <br> <div class=3D"gmail_quote"> <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Nov 17, 2023 at 9:19=E2=80=AFPM Massimo Grassi <<a href=3D"mailto:massimo.gr= assi@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">massimo.grassi@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8= ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <div dir=3D"ltr">Dear all, <div><br> </div> <div>I was recently writing a paper about threshold estimation in hearing and at some point=C2=A0I stopped.=C2= =A0</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Let suppose you are estimating a frequency discrimination threshold with a classic 2-down 1-up staircase rule (Levitt, 1971). Theoretically, you could approach the threshold from below or from above, I repeat this every year to 1st year students=C2=A0when I tea= ch them the method of limits! In practice, however, in psychoacoustics we rarely-to-never approach the threshold from below.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Is there any reason for this "tradition"? I kn= ow=C2=A0the psychometric function should be symmetric below and above threshold! But this does not explain the "tradition"!</div> <div><br> </div> <div>All the best from "it is almost winter" North = East Italy.</div> <div>m</div> </div> </blockquote> </div> </div> </blockquote> <br> <br> <div><br> </div> </div> </blockquote></div></div> --000000000000be9254060aaa7de7-- --000000000000be9256060aaa7de8 Content-Type: image/png; name="image001.png" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image001.png" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <ii_18bf237e8c0ad7999131> X-Attachment-Id: ii_18bf237e8c0ad7999131 iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAH0AAAAwCAMAAAALmIWlAAAAGXRFWHRTb2Z0d2FyZQBBZG9iZSBJ bWFnZVJlYWR5ccllPAAAADNQTFRFKzVYHCZM4eLn8PHzpKi30dTbaG+IlZqrs7fDWWB8O0Nkd32U wsXPSlJwhoufDRhA////A68jmAAAABF0Uk5T/////////////////////wAlrZliAAACYklEQVR4 2uzY22KDIAwAUC7e6gjw/187gUC4OetaupflaTXKWSuBKNMuJptC+QMCP20auPHBQCubBWU46K24 uB7NfZ58ZqaMP8D8AEBHtT/goXnB8WPwBf8r1WYUXWxUOZobHcJXIMcfONclmE4s0lrRzYBIOjvT jX5WV6YbP2ZQJ6TWjfiAbuYzHW7p+xpuolQrP83sjQ5nupnu6LqaJ92MbnSznulcfkBHpNXNY6y+ c0JKnWX1eFeflQt5qcNESKnrQMrf6LSAXeiWkEoXdOU4nZBKxzPnoTohtW5ZZyK8W09Io6tYjyP1 iDS6XbAeh815S0irS6zHUfXuB0Ok1S3W41AdEWh1/Nb7UD1bWytd0LY4ThdnerYbBJ1taT5XBmy4 J8mNnWagp5fbba6HeiTdneK6vNgoFj0EhyO4eSZT6AlpdNXoNzqYi94GbIU0eqhHp3d5drRf4heZ Uo9Iq8vYptup6VB37H6m/W6m0hFpdaxH3/yK9cHpVq5Zy59n2GMV/QxPGdV9NElPE9njyOozsfWW Kq6j7bLuw97KPBnM/mX86//6n+tH/yLKP7AUXcyd80Lx53WnspB47ty5qKND1gLockfIFzHR7srp Q7X0+6GgHPNFXedPyaN1CPFli71z+ZBeTxbcI2RXxwOQj/lW/Ui610Z6gA4a32WRrssXYbO76V/Z y6FLnZVj/qCnqGcdZE1DeFKcntWrMV/RZXCh7B/fpF/+8tQQx6J74y9/Oeuyrm75+Jyf8oKWH9CL 1SYNJtJ91HTOAD2fdjPN9UcsumwmDNYXqvPtOLa9pH8LMACnoV0siZAyOAAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== --000000000000be9256060aaa7de8--