Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Estimation of auditory sensory thresholds from below: any evidence? From: Wolfgang Ellermeier <ellermeier@xxxxxxxx> Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2023 10:44:17 +0100This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------dabkJzcx3BFsRoevtgV5F2Ji Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by edgeum4.it.mcgill.ca id 3AL9iOSl074244 Daniel, in David Emmerich's "old school" signal detection lab (a fellow grad=20 student of the cited Dennis McFadden) we used the terms 'detection' /=20 'detectability', or 'discrimination' / 'discriminability'. That kind of=20 works most of the time without using the t-word, Wolfgang Am 21.11.2023 um 09:09 schrieb Oberfeld-Twistel, Daniel: > > Absolutely, that=E2=80=99s why I put =E2=80=9Cthreshold=E2=80=9D in quo= tation marks in my=20 > post. It=E2=80=99s important to keep in mind that since the seminal wor= ks on=20 > the application of signal detection theory to psychophysics by Tanner,=20 > Green, Swets etc. in the 1960ies, we should always be aware that there=20 > is no =E2=80=9Cthreshold=E2=80=9D in the sense that stimuli below the t= hreshold are=20 > impossible to perceive while those above are always perceived. An=20 > important point the SDT makes is that the difference between the=20 > perceptual representation =C2=A0of sub- and suprathreshold stimuli is n= ot=20 > qualitative but quantitative. > > However, I know no catchy but less confusing replacements terms for=20 > =E2=80=9Cthreshold=E2=80=9D (e.g., =E2=80=9Csound level corresponding t= o 71% correct=20 > detection=E2=80=9D is certainly not an option =F0=9F=98=89) =E2=80=93 d= oes anyone? > > Daniel > > *From:*AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception < > *On Behalf Of=20 > *Les Bernstein > *Sent:* Monday, November 20, 2023 4:21 PM > *To:* AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx > *Subject:* Re: Estimation of auditory sensory thresholds from below:=20 > any evidence? > > Of course, there is no auditory "threshold" and Dr. Dennis McFadden=20 > has argued for years that the use of the term to indicate the=20 > magnitude of the independent variable corresponding to a given level=20 > of performance is to confuse the historical background.=C2=A0 Although = he=20 > is quite correct, I have no illusions that people will retire the=20 > term.=C2=A0 As for starting from "above," I agree with Dick.=C2=A0 It's= a more=20 > efficient way to conduct an experiment.=C2=A0 Still, in an objective=20 > psychophysical task with feedback, one could start from below. Taking=20 > the 2-down, 1-up Levitt tracker as an example, in practice, starting=20 > from below tends to result in a bunch of "wasted" trials.=C2=A0 The met= hod=20 > of limits is, of course, a biased psychophysical procedure that has=20 > its own set of issues. > > Les > > --=20 > *Leslie R. Bernstein, Ph.D. **| *Professor Emeritus > Depts. of Neuroscience and Surgery (Otolaryngology) | UConn School of=20 > Medicine > 263 Farmington Avenue, Farmington, CT 06030-3401 > Office: 860.679.4622 | Fax: 860.679.2495 > > > > On 11/18/2023 12:30 AM, Richard F. Lyon wrote: > > *** Attention: This is an external email. Use caution responding, > opening attachments or clicking on links. *** > > I think the subject needs to feel like they're doing the job well, > so starting easy (above threshold) makes sense. And they get to > know very well what signal to listen for. > > If you approach from below, they don't know what signal to expect, > so may not be in an "optimal detector" state of mind. > > Dick > > On Fri, Nov 17, 2023 at 9:19=E2=80=AFPM Massimo Grassi > <massimo.grassi@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > > Dear all, > > I was recently writing a paper about threshold estimation in > hearing and at some point=C2=A0I stopped. > > Let suppose you are estimating a frequency discrimination > threshold with a classic 2-down 1-up staircase rule (Levitt, > 1971). Theoretically, you could approach the threshold from > below or from above, I repeat this every year to 1st year > students=C2=A0when I teach them the method of limits! In practi= ce, > however, in psychoacoustics we rarely-to-never approach the > threshold from below. > > Is there any reason for this "tradition"? I know=C2=A0the > psychometric function should be symmetric below and above > threshold! But this does not explain the "tradition"! > > All the best from "it is almost winter" North East Italy. > > m > --=20 Prof. Wolfgang Ellermeier, Ph.D. Institut fuer Psychologie Technische Universitaet Darmstadt Alexanderstr. 10 D - 64283 DARMSTADT, Germany phone: ++49-6151-1624103 phone (secr.): ++49-6151-1624012 E-mail: ellermeier@xxxxxxxx http://www.psychologie.tu-darmstadt.de/ellermeier --------------dabkJzcx3BFsRoevtgV5F2Ji Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------fT0cwlmWQi3ON0nta0zZtOj3" --------------fT0cwlmWQi3ON0nta0zZtOj3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by edgeum4.it.mcgill.ca id 3AL9iOSl074244 <!DOCTYPE html> <html> <head> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUTF= -8"> </head> <body> <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">Daniel,</div> <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix"><br> </div> <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">in David Emmerich's "old school" signa= l detection lab (a fellow grad student of the cited Dennis McFadden) we used the terms 'detection' / 'detectability', or 'discrimination' / 'discriminability'. That kind of works most of the time without using the t-word,=C2=A0 <br> </div> <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix"><br> </div> <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">Wolfgang</div> <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix"><br> </div> <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">Am 21.11.2023 um 09:09 schrieb Oberfeld-Twistel, Daniel:<br> </div> <blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:1eb20be482384878bc743b0b25be299d@xxxxxxxx"> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DU= TF-8"> <meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"> <!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </style><![endif]--> <style>@xxxxxxxx {font-family:Helvetica; panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;}@xxxxxxxx {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}@xxxxxxxx {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}@xxxxxxxx {font-family:"Times New Roman \;color\:\#002048"; panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}@xxxxxxxx {font-family:"Times New Roman \;color\:\#585858"; panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0cm; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;}span.E-MailFormatvorlage18 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:windowtext;}.MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-size:10.0pt; mso-ligatures:none;}div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;}</style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> <div class=3D"WordSection1"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US" lang=3D"EN-US">Absolutely, that=E2=80=99s why I put =E2=80=9C= threshold=E2=80=9D in quotation marks in my post. It=E2=80=99s important to keep = in mind that since the seminal works on the application of signal detection theory to psychophysics by Tanner, Green, Swets etc. in the 1960ies, we should always be aware that there is no =E2=80=9Cthreshold=E2=80=9D in the sense that stimuli= below the threshold are impossible to perceive while those above are always perceived. An important point the SDT makes is that the difference between the perceptual representation =C2=A0= of sub- and suprathreshold stimuli is not qualitative but quantitative.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US" lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>=C2=A0</o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US" lang=3D"EN-US">However, I know no catchy but less confusing replacements terms for =E2=80=9Cthreshold=E2=80=9D (e.g., =E2= =80=9Csound level corresponding to 71% correct detection=E2=80=9D is certainl= y not an option </span></font><font face=3D"Segoe UI Emoji"><span style=3D"font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la= nguage:EN-US" lang=3D"EN-US">=F0=9F=98=89</span></font><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US" lang=3D"EN-US"> ) =E2=80= =93 does anyone?<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US" lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>=C2=A0</o:p></span></font></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-ligatures:standardcontextual" lang=3D"EN-US= ">Daniel </span></font><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US" lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>=C2=A0</o:p></span></font></p> <div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0= pt"> <div> <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm= 0cm"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"= ><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-weight:bold" lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></font></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception < > <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span= ></b>Les Bernstein<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Monday, November 20, 2023 4:21 PM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:AU= DITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a><br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: Estimation of auditory sensory thresholds from below: any evidence?<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt" lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>=C2=A0</o:= p></span></font></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Helvetica"><s= pan style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">O= f course, there is no auditory "threshold" and Dr. Dennis McFadden has argued for years that the use of the term to indicate the magnitude of the independent variable corresponding to a given level of performance is to confuse the historical background.=C2=A0 Although= he is quite correct, I have no illusions that people will retire the term.=C2=A0 As for starting from "above," I agree with Dick.=C2=A0 It's a more efficient way to con= duct an experiment.=C2=A0 Still, in an objective psychophysi= cal task with feedback, one could start from below.=C2=A0=C2= =A0 Taking the 2-down, 1-up Levitt tracker as an example, in practice, starting from below tends to result in a bunch of "wasted" trials.=C2=A0 The method of limits is= , of course, a biased psychophysical procedure that has its own set of issues.<br> <br> Les<br> <br> </span></font>-- <br> <b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;font-w= eight:bold">Leslie R. Bernstein, Ph.D. </span></font></b><b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><s= pan style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;font-w= eight:bold">| </span></font></b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Profe= ssor Emeritus</span></font><br> <font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Depts. of Neuroscience and Surgery (Otolaryngology) | UConn School of Medicine </span></font><br> <font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">263 Farmington Avenue, Farmington, CT 06030-3401</span></fo= nt><br> <font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Offic= e: 860.679.4622 | Fax: 860.679.2495<br> <br> <img style=3D"width:1.3009in;height:.5in" id=3D"Bild_x0020_1" src=3D"cid:part1.hrBotljg.jo5DRtmT@xxxxxxxx" class=3D"= " width=3D"125" height=3D"48"></span></font><br> <br> On 11/18/2023 12:30 AM, Richard F. Lyon wrote:<o:p></o:p></= p> </div> <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:center;background:#D5EAFF" align=3D"center"> <font size=3D"3" face=3D"Calibri" color=3D"red"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:red">*** Attention: This is an external email. Use caution responding, opening attachments or clicking on links. ***<o:p></o= :p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Calibri= "><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">I think the subject needs to feel like they're doing the job well, so starting easy (above threshold) makes sense.=C2= =A0 And they get to know very well what signal to listen for.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Calibri= "><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>=C2=A0</o:p></spa= n></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Calibri= "><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">If you approach from below, they don't know what signal to expect, so may not be in an "optimal detector" state of mind.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Calibri= "><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>=C2=A0</o:p></spa= n></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Calibri= "><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Dick<o:p></o:p></span>= </font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Calibri= "><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>=C2=A0</o:p></spa= n></font></p> </div> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><s= pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>=C2=A0</o:p></span></= font></p> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri= "><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">On Fri, Nov 17, 2023 a= t 9:19=E2=80=AFPM Massimo Grassi <<a href=3D"mailto:massimo.grassi@xxxxxxxx" moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext">massimo.grassi@xxxxxxxx= unipd.it</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm = 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calib= ri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Dear all, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Cal= ibri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>=C2=A0</o:p><= /span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Cal= ibri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">I was recently writing a paper about threshold estimation in hearing and at some point=C2=A0I stopped.=C2= =A0<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Cal= ibri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>=C2=A0</o:p><= /span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Cal= ibri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Let suppose you ar= e estimating a frequency discrimination threshold with a classic 2-down 1-up staircase rule (Levitt, 1971). Theoretically, you could approach the threshold from below or from above, I repeat this every year to 1st year students=C2=A0whe= n I teach them the method of limits! In practice, however, in psychoacoustics we rarely-to-never approach the threshold from below.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Cal= ibri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>=C2=A0</o:p><= /span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Cal= ibri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Is there any reaso= n for this "tradition"? I know=C2=A0the psychometric function should be symmetric below and above threshold! But this does not explain the "tradition"!<o:p></o:p></span></f= ont></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Cal= ibri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>=C2=A0</o:p><= /span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Cal= ibri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">All the best from "it is almost winter" North East Italy.<o:p><= /o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Cal= ibri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">m<o:p></o:p></span= ></font></p> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> </div> </blockquote> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt= "><o:p>=C2=A0</o:p></span></font></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><spa= n style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>=C2=A0</o:p></span></fo= nt></p> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> <p><br> </p> <div class=3D"moz-signature">-- <br> Prof. Wolfgang Ellermeier, Ph.D. <br> Institut fuer Psychologie <br> Technische Universitaet Darmstadt <br> Alexanderstr. 10 <br> D - 64283 DARMSTADT, Germany <br> <p> phone: ++49-6151-1624103 <br> phone (secr.): ++49-6151-1624012 <br> E-mail: <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:elle= rmeier@xxxxxxxx">ellermeier@xxxxxxxx= e</a> <br> <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://www.psychologie= .tu-darmstadt.de/ellermeier">http://www.psychologie.tu-darmstadt.de/eller= meier</a><br> </p> </div> </body> </html> --------------fT0cwlmWQi3ON0nta0zZtOj3 Content-Type: image/png; name="image001.png" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image001.png" Content-Id: <part1.hrBotljg.jo5DRtmT@xxxxxxxx> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAH0AAAAwCAMAAAALmIWlAAAAGXRFWHRTb2Z0d2FyZQBBZG9i ZSBJbWFnZVJlYWR5ccllPAAAADNQTFRFKzVYHCZM4eLn8PHzpKi30dTbaG+IlZqrs7fDWWB8 O0Nkd32UwsXPSlJwhoufDRhA////A68jmAAAABF0Uk5T/////////////////////wAlrZli AAACYklEQVR42uzY22KDIAwAUC7e6gjw/187gUC4OetaupflaTXKWSuBKNMuJptC+QMCP20a uPHBQCubBWU46K24uB7NfZ58ZqaMP8D8AEBHtT/goXnB8WPwBf8r1WYUXWxUOZobHcJXIMcf ONclmE4s0lrRzYBIOjvTjX5WV6YbP2ZQJ6TWjfiAbuYzHW7p+xpuolQrP83sjQ5nupnu6Lqa J92MbnSznulcfkBHpNXNY6y+c0JKnWX1eFeflQt5qcNESKnrQMrf6LSAXeiWkEoXdOU4nZBK xzPnoTohtW5ZZyK8W09Io6tYjyP1iDS6XbAeh815S0irS6zHUfXuB0Ok1S3W41AdEWh1/Nb7 UD1bWytd0LY4ThdnerYbBJ1taT5XBmy4J8mNnWagp5fbba6HeiTdneK6vNgoFj0EhyO4eSZT 6AlpdNXoNzqYi94GbIU0eqhHp3d5drRf4heZUo9Iq8vYptup6VB37H6m/W6m0hFpdaxH3/yK 9cHpVq5Zy59n2GMV/QxPGdV9NElPE9njyOozsfWWKq6j7bLuw97KPBnM/mX86//6n+tH/yLK P7AUXcyd80Lx53WnspB47ty5qKND1gLockfIFzHR7srpQ7X0+6GgHPNFXedPyaN1CPFli71z +ZBeTxbcI2RXxwOQj/lW/Ui610Z6gA4a32WRrssXYbO76V/Zy6FLnZVj/qCnqGcdZE1DeFKc ntWrMV/RZXCh7B/fpF/+8tQQx6J74y9/Oeuyrm75+Jyf8oKWH9CL1SYNJtJ91HTOAD2fdjPN 9UcsumwmDNYXqvPtOLa9pH8LMACnoV0siZAyOAAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== --------------fT0cwlmWQi3ON0nta0zZtOj3-- --------------dabkJzcx3BFsRoevtgV5F2Ji--