Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Estimation of auditory sensory thresholds from below: any evidence? From: Les Bernstein <lbernstein@xxxxxxxx> Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2023 10:21:19 -0500--------------S5SQa9VAsgGF0BFuv0TPPaOw Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by edgeum3.it.mcgill.ca id 3AKFLVix075290 Of course, there is no auditory "threshold" and Dr. Dennis McFadden has=20 argued for years that the use of the term to indicate the magnitude of=20 the independent variable corresponding to a given level of performance=20 is to confuse the historical background.=C2=A0 Although he is quite corre= ct,=20 I have no illusions that people will retire the term.=C2=A0 As for starti= ng=20 from "above," I agree with Dick. It's a more efficient way to conduct an=20 experiment.=C2=A0 Still, in an objective psychophysical task with feedbac= k,=20 one could start from below.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Taking the 2-down, 1-up Levitt tr= acker as=20 an example, in practice, starting from below tends to result in a bunch=20 of "wasted" trials.=C2=A0 The method of limits is, of course, a biased=20 psychophysical procedure that has its own set of issues. Les --=20 *Leslie R. Bernstein, Ph.D. **| *Professor Emeritus Depts. of Neuroscience and Surgery (Otolaryngology) | UConn School of=20 Medicine 263 Farmington Avenue, Farmington, CT 06030-3401 Office: 860.679.4622 | Fax: 860.679.2495 On 11/18/2023 12:30 AM, Richard F. Lyon wrote: > *** Attention: This is an external email. Use caution responding,=20 > opening attachments or clicking on links. *** > I think the subject needs to feel like they're doing the job well, so=20 > starting easy (above threshold) makes sense.=C2=A0 And they get to know= =20 > very well what signal to listen for. > > If you approach from below, they don't know what signal to expect, so=20 > may not be in an "optimal detector" state of mind. > > Dick > > > On Fri, Nov 17, 2023 at 9:19=E2=80=AFPM Massimo Grassi=20 > <massimo.grassi@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > > Dear all, > > I was recently writing a paper about threshold estimation in > hearing and at some point=C2=A0I stopped. > > Let suppose you are estimating a frequency discrimination > threshold with a classic 2-down 1-up staircase rule (Levitt, > 1971). Theoretically, you could approach the threshold from below > or from above, I repeat this every year to 1st year students=C2=A0w= hen > I teach them the method of limits! In practice, however, in > psychoacoustics we rarely-to-never approach the threshold from belo= w. > > Is there any reason for this "tradition"? I know=C2=A0the psychomet= ric > function should be symmetric below and above threshold! But this > does not explain the "tradition"! > > All the best from "it is almost winter" North East Italy. > m > --------------S5SQa9VAsgGF0BFuv0TPPaOw Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------YjQFLJ1z0igS0XrI0V1J9TCC" --------------YjQFLJ1z0igS0XrI0V1J9TCC Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by edgeum3.it.mcgill.ca id 3AKFLVix075290 <!DOCTYPE html><html><head> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"> </head> <body> <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Helvetica, Ar= ial, sans-serif">Of course, there is no auditory "threshold" and Dr. Dennis McFadden has argued= for years that the use of the term to indicate the magnitude of the independent variable corresponding to a given level of performance is to confuse the historical background. Althou= gh he is quite correct, I have no illusions that people will retire the term. As for starting from "above," I agree w= ith Dick. It's a more efficient way to conduct an experiment. Still, = in an objective psychophysical task with feedback, one could start from below. Taking the 2-down, 1-up Levitt tracker as= an example, in practice, starting from below tends to result in a bunch of "wasted" trials. The method of limits is= , of course, a biased psychophysical procedure that has its own set of issues.<b= r> <br> Les<br> <br> </font>-- <br> <b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sa= ns-serif; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman \;color\:\#002048"">Leslie R. Bernstein, Ph.D. </span></= b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-s= erif; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman \;color\:\#585858"">| </span></b><span style=3D"font-siz= e:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family= : "Times New Roman \;color\:\#585858"">Professor Emeritus</span><sp= an style=3D"mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman""></span>= <span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman \;color\:\#585858""></span><br> <span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-= serif; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman \;color\:\#585858""></span> <span style=3D"font-size= :10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman \;color\:\#585858""> Depts. of Neuroscience and Surgery (Otolaryngology) | UConn School of Medicine </span><br> <span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-= serif; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman \;color\:\#585858""></span><span style=3D"font-siz= e:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman \;color\:\#585858"">263 Farmington Avenue, Farmington, CT 06030-3401</span><br> <span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-= serif; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman \;color\:\#585858""></span><span style=3D"font-siz= e:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman \;color\:\#585858"">Office: 860.679.4622 | Fax: 860.679.2495<br> <br> <img src=3D"cid:part1.jHTY4iB9.Q3kYTYWv@xxxxxxxx" alt=3D"" width=3D= "125" height=3D"48"></span><br> <br> On 11/18/2023 12:30 AM, Richard F. Lyon wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:CAA=3DYKqi20O_PqFenprynduqzQGx0= _C0TztHS_K+UeMDe3uwa0w@xxxxxxxx"> =20 <div style=3D"background-color:#D5EAFF; padding:.8em; "> <div style=3D"font-size:12pt; color:#ff0000; text-align: center; = font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;"> *** Attention: This is an external email. Use caution responding, opening attachments or clicking on links. ***</div> </div> <div> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">I think = the subject needs to feel like they're doing the job well, so starting easy (above threshold) makes sense. And they g= et to know very well what signal to listen for.</div> <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br> </div> <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">If you approach from below, they don't know what signal to expect, so may not be in an "optimal detector" state of min= d.</div> <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br> </div> <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Dick</di= v> <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br> </div> </div> <br> <div class=3D"gmail_quote"> <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Nov 17, 2023 at 9:19=E2=80=AFPM Massimo Grassi <<a href=3D"mailto:massimo.= grassi@xxxxxxxx" moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext"= >massimo.grassi@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0= .8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <div dir=3D"ltr">Dear all, <div><br> </div> <div>I was recently writing a paper about threshold estimation in hearing and at some point I stopped.&n= bsp;</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Let suppose you are estimating a frequency discrimination threshold with a classic 2-down 1-up staircase rule (Levitt, 1971). Theoretically, you could approach the threshold from below or from above, I repeat this every year to 1st year students when I t= each them the method of limits! In practice, however, in psychoacoustics we rarely-to-never approach the threshold from below.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Is there any reason for this "tradition"? I = know the psychometric function should be symmetric below and above threshold! But this does not explain the "tradition"!</div> <div><br> </div> <div>All the best from "it is almost winter" Nort= h East Italy.</div> <div>m</div> </div> </blockquote> </div> </div> </blockquote> <br> <br> <div class=3D"moz-signature"><br> </div> </body> </html> --------------YjQFLJ1z0igS0XrI0V1J9TCC Content-Type: image/png; name="image001.png" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image001.png" Content-ID: <part1.jHTY4iB9.Q3kYTYWv@xxxxxxxx> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAH0AAAAwCAMAAAALmIWlAAAAGXRFWHRTb2Z0d2FyZQBBZG9iZSBJ bWFnZVJlYWR5ccllPAAAADNQTFRFKzVYHCZM4eLn8PHzpKi30dTbaG+IlZqrs7fDWWB8O0Nkd32U wsXPSlJwhoufDRhA////A68jmAAAABF0Uk5T/////////////////////wAlrZliAAACYklEQVR4 2uzY22KDIAwAUC7e6gjw/187gUC4OetaupflaTXKWSuBKNMuJptC+QMCP20auPHBQCubBWU46K24 uB7NfZ58ZqaMP8D8AEBHtT/goXnB8WPwBf8r1WYUXWxUOZobHcJXIMcfONclmE4s0lrRzYBIOjvT jX5WV6YbP2ZQJ6TWjfiAbuYzHW7p+xpuolQrP83sjQ5nupnu6LqaJ92MbnSznulcfkBHpNXNY6y+ c0JKnWX1eFeflQt5qcNESKnrQMrf6LSAXeiWkEoXdOU4nZBKxzPnoTohtW5ZZyK8W09Io6tYjyP1 iDS6XbAeh815S0irS6zHUfXuB0Ok1S3W41AdEWh1/Nb7UD1bWytd0LY4ThdnerYbBJ1taT5XBmy4 J8mNnWagp5fbba6HeiTdneK6vNgoFj0EhyO4eSZT6AlpdNXoNzqYi94GbIU0eqhHp3d5drRf4heZ Uo9Iq8vYptup6VB37H6m/W6m0hFpdaxH3/yK9cHpVq5Zy59n2GMV/QxPGdV9NElPE9njyOozsfWW Kq6j7bLuw97KPBnM/mX86//6n+tH/yLKP7AUXcyd80Lx53WnspB47ty5qKND1gLockfIFzHR7srp Q7X0+6GgHPNFXedPyaN1CPFli71z+ZBeTxbcI2RXxwOQj/lW/Ui610Z6gA4a32WRrssXYbO76V/Z y6FLnZVj/qCnqGcdZE1DeFKcntWrMV/RZXCh7B/fpF/+8tQQx6J74y9/Oeuyrm75+Jyf8oKWH9CL 1SYNJtJ91HTOAD2fdjPN9UcsumwmDNYXqvPtOLa9pH8LMACnoV0siZAyOAAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== --------------YjQFLJ1z0igS0XrI0V1J9TCC-- --------------S5SQa9VAsgGF0BFuv0TPPaOw--