Re: [AUDITORY] Estimation of auditory sensory thresholds from below: any evidence? ("Richard F. Lyon" )

Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Estimation of auditory sensory thresholds from below: any evidence? From: "Richard F. Lyon" <dicklyon@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2023 22:35:00 -0800 --0000000000004086f8060a7b92f5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think the right ear advantage is more about speech than about tone detection. Dick On Sat, Nov 18, 2023, 9:14=E2=80=AFPM AMITH THOMAS <amiththomasluke@xxxxxxxx= om> wrote: > Just to add on to that, > > Is that also the reason why we normally pick right ear to start the test > when the person doesn't complain about any asymmetry. > > To consider the right ear advantage to make the person be more able to > "optimally detect" the sound? > > Thanks, > Amith > > On Sat, 18 Nov 2023, 10:36 Oberfeld-Twistel, Daniel, < > oberfeld@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > >> Hi Massimo, >> >> >> >> I totally agree with Dick. An adaptive procedure works regardless of the >> starting values you set =E2=80=93 after all, it=E2=80=99s one of the mai= n reasons to use an >> adaptive procedure that you don=E2=80=99t need to know the =E2=80=9Cthre= shold=E2=80=9D in advance. >> >> However, for fostering the participant=E2=80=99s understanding of the ta= sk and >> for their motivation, it certainly seems better to start with a conditio= n >> where they can likely give a correct response. >> >> >> >> Just a cautionary note, I would not term this =E2=80=9Capproach from abo= ve=E2=80=9D as in >> a method of limits. In the latter task, we know that the approach from >> above almost certainly gives results a different measured =E2=80=9Cthres= hold=E2=80=9D than >> an approach from below (due to =E2=80=9Chysteresis=E2=80=9D-like respons= e biases). In an >> adaptive procedure, regardless of where you start, the relevant stimulus >> aspect (frequency difference in your case) will at some point arrive at = a >> value where the participant can respond with (in your example) the >> proportion correct tracked by the adaptive rule. Unless you run too few >> trials, the tracked point on the psychometric function will be =E2=80=9C= bracketed=E2=80=9D >> by the adaptive track during a certain number of trials, so that the >> starting value is very unlikely to play any role. >> >> >> >> Greetings from southern Germany, where it=E2=80=99s also rather cold an = rainy >> right now =F0=9F=98=89 >> >> >> >> Daniel >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> >> Prof. Dr. Daniel Oberfeld-Twistel >> >> Johannes Gutenberg - Universitaet Mainz, Experimental Psychology >> >> Wallstrasse 3 >> >> 55122 Mainz >> >> Germany >> >> Phone ++49 6131 39 39274 >> >> http://www.staff.uni-mainz.de/oberfeld/ >> >> >> >> *From:* AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception < >> AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> *On Behalf Of *Richard F. Lyon >> *Sent:* Saturday, November 18, 2023 6:31 AM >> *To:* AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx >> *Subject:* Re: Estimation of auditory sensory thresholds from below: any >> evidence? >> >> >> >> I think the subject needs to feel like they're doing the job well, so >> starting easy (above threshold) makes sense. And they get to know very >> well what signal to listen for. >> >> >> >> If you approach from below, they don't know what signal to expect, so ma= y >> not be in an "optimal detector" state of mind. >> >> >> >> Dick >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 17, 2023 at 9:19=E2=80=AFPM Massimo Grassi <massimo.grassi@xxxxxxxx= nipd.it> >> wrote: >> >> Dear all, >> >> >> >> I was recently writing a paper about threshold estimation in hearing and >> at some point I stopped. >> >> >> >> Let suppose you are estimating a frequency discrimination threshold with >> a classic 2-down 1-up staircase rule (Levitt, 1971). Theoretically, you >> could approach the threshold from below or from above, I repeat this eve= ry >> year to 1st year students when I teach them the method of limits! In >> practice, however, in psychoacoustics we rarely-to-never approach the >> threshold from below. >> >> >> >> Is there any reason for this "tradition"? I know the psychometric >> function should be symmetric below and above threshold! But this does no= t >> explain the "tradition"! >> >> >> >> All the best from "it is almost winter" North East Italy. >> >> m >> >> --0000000000004086f8060a7b92f5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"auto">I think the right ear advantage is more about speech than= about tone detection.<div dir=3D"auto">Dick</div><div dir=3D"auto"> </d= iv></div> <div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_att= r">On Sat, Nov 18, 2023, 9:14=E2=80=AFPM AMITH THOMAS <<a href=3D"mailto= :amiththomasluke@xxxxxxxx">amiththomasluke@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote: </d= iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left= :1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Just to add on to = that,</div><div dir=3D"auto"> </div><div dir=3D"auto">Is that also the r= eason why we normally pick right ear to start the test when the person does= n't complain about any asymmetry.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"> </di= v><div dir=3D"auto">To consider the right ear advantage to make the person = be more able to "optimally detect" the sound?</div><div dir=3D"au= to"> </div><div dir=3D"auto">Thanks,</div><div dir=3D"auto">Amith <br= ><div class=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_at= tr">On Sat, 18 Nov 2023, 10:36 Oberfeld-Twistel, Daniel, <<a href=3D"mai= lto:oberfeld@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">oberfeld@xxxxxxxx= i-mainz.de</a>> wrote: </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style= =3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div lang=3D"DE" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wrap:break-wo= rd"> <div> Hi Massimo, =C2=A0 I totally agree with Dick. An adaptive proced= ure works regardless of the starting values you set =E2=80=93 after all, it= =E2=80=99s one of the main reasons to use an adaptive procedure that you don=E2=80=99t need to know the =E2= =80=9Cthreshold=E2=80=9D in advance. However, for fostering the participant=E2=80= =99s understanding of the task and for their motivation, it certainly seems= better to start with a condition where they can likely give a correct response.</sp= an> =C2=A0 Just a cautionary note, I would not term this= =E2=80=9Capproach from above=E2=80=9D as in a method of limits. In the lat= ter task, we know that the approach from above almost certainly gives results a different measured =E2=80=9Cth= reshold=E2=80=9D than an approach from below (due to =E2=80=9Chysteresis=E2= =80=9D-like response biases). In an adaptive procedure, regardless of where= you start, the relevant stimulus aspect (frequency difference in your case) will at some point arrive at a value where the participant can = respond with (in your example) the proportion correct tracked by the adapti= ve rule. Unless you run too few trials, the tracked point on the psychometr= ic function will be =E2=80=9Cbracketed=E2=80=9D by the adaptive track during a certain number of trials, so that the start= ing value is very unlikely to play any role.</p= > =C2=A0 Greetings from southern Germany, where it=E2= =80=99s also rather cold an rainy right now =F0=9F=98=89</font= > =C2=A0 Daniel =C2=A0 ---------------------------------</font= > Prof. Dr. Daniel Oberfeld-Twistel</font= > Johannes Gutenberg - Universitaet Mainz, Experimental Psycho= logy Wallstrasse 3 55122 Mainz Germany Phone ++49 6131 39 39274 <a href=3D"http://www.staff.uni-mainz.de/oberfeld/" rel=3D"n= oreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.staff.uni-mainz.de/oberf= eld/</a> =C2=A0 <div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm = 4.0pt"> <div> <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm = 0cm 0cm"> From: AUDITORY - Resea= rch in Auditory Perception <<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" = rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a= >> On Behalf Of Richard F. Lyon= Sent: Saturday, November 18,= 2023 6:31 AM To: <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITO= RY@xxxxxxxx" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">AUDITOR= Y@xxxxxxxx</a> Subject: Re: Estimation of a= uditory sensory thresholds from below: any evidence? </div> </div> =C2=A0 <div> <div> I think the subject needs to feel like they're doing the= job well, so starting easy (above threshold) makes sense.=C2=A0 And they g= et to know very well what signal to listen for.= </div> <div> =C2=A0 </div> <div> If you approach from below, they don't know what signal = to expect, so may not be in an "optimal detector" state of mind.<= u> </div> <div> =C2=A0 </div> <div> Dick </div> <div> =C2=A0 </div> </div> =C2=A0 <div> <div> On Fri, Nov 17, 2023 at 9:19=E2=80=AFPM Massimo Grassi <<= a href=3D"mailto:massimo.grassi@xxxxxxxx" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" tar= get=3D"_blank">massimo.grassi@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<= /font> </div> <blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c= m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"> <div> Dear all, <div> =C2=A0 </div> <div> I was recently writing a paper about threshold estimation in= hearing and at some point=C2=A0I stopped.=C2=A0</font= > </div> <div> =C2=A0 </div> <div> Let suppose you are estimating a frequency discrimination th= reshold with a classic 2-down 1-up staircase rule (Levitt, 1971). Theoretic= ally, you could approach the threshold from below or from above, I repeat this every year to 1st year students=C2=A0wh= en I teach them the method of limits! In practice, however, in psychoacoust= ics we rarely-to-never approach the threshold from below.</sp= an> </div> <div> =C2=A0 </div> <div> Is there any reason for this "tradition"? I know= =C2=A0the psychometric function should be symmetric below and above thresho= ld! But this does not explain the "tradition"!</spa= n> </div> <div> =C2=A0 </div> <div> All the best from "it is almost winter" North East= Italy. </div> <div> m </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote></div></div></div> </blockquote></div> --0000000000004086f8060a7b92f5--

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