Re: [AUDITORY] Estimation of auditory sensory thresholds from below: any evidence? (AMITH THOMAS )

Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Estimation of auditory sensory thresholds from below: any evidence? From: AMITH THOMAS <amiththomasluke@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2023 10:41:37 +0000 --000000000000599085060a6ae60f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just to add on to that, Is that also the reason why we normally pick right ear to start the test when the person doesn't complain about any asymmetry. To consider the right ear advantage to make the person be more able to "optimally detect" the sound? Thanks, Amith On Sat, 18 Nov 2023, 10:36 Oberfeld-Twistel, Daniel, <oberfeld@xxxxxxxx= > wrote: > Hi Massimo, > > > > I totally agree with Dick. An adaptive procedure works regardless of the > starting values you set =E2=80=93 after all, it=E2=80=99s one of the main= reasons to use an > adaptive procedure that you don=E2=80=99t need to know the =E2=80=9Cthres= hold=E2=80=9D in advance. > > However, for fostering the participant=E2=80=99s understanding of the tas= k and for > their motivation, it certainly seems better to start with a condition whe= re > they can likely give a correct response. > > > > Just a cautionary note, I would not term this =E2=80=9Capproach from abov= e=E2=80=9D as in > a method of limits. In the latter task, we know that the approach from > above almost certainly gives results a different measured =E2=80=9Cthresh= old=E2=80=9D than > an approach from below (due to =E2=80=9Chysteresis=E2=80=9D-like response= biases). In an > adaptive procedure, regardless of where you start, the relevant stimulus > aspect (frequency difference in your case) will at some point arrive at a > value where the participant can respond with (in your example) the > proportion correct tracked by the adaptive rule. Unless you run too few > trials, the tracked point on the psychometric function will be =E2=80=9Cb= racketed=E2=80=9D > by the adaptive track during a certain number of trials, so that the > starting value is very unlikely to play any role. > > > > Greetings from southern Germany, where it=E2=80=99s also rather cold an r= ainy > right now =F0=9F=98=89 > > > > Daniel > > > > --------------------------------- > > Prof. Dr. Daniel Oberfeld-Twistel > > Johannes Gutenberg - Universitaet Mainz, Experimental Psychology > > Wallstrasse 3 > > 55122 Mainz > > Germany > > Phone ++49 6131 39 39274 > > http://www.staff.uni-mainz.de/oberfeld/ > > > > *From:* AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception < > AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> *On Behalf Of *Richard F. Lyon > *Sent:* Saturday, November 18, 2023 6:31 AM > *To:* AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx > *Subject:* Re: Estimation of auditory sensory thresholds from below: any > evidence? > > > > I think the subject needs to feel like they're doing the job well, so > starting easy (above threshold) makes sense. And they get to know very > well what signal to listen for. > > > > If you approach from below, they don't know what signal to expect, so may > not be in an "optimal detector" state of mind. > > > > Dick > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 17, 2023 at 9:19=E2=80=AFPM Massimo Grassi <massimo.grassi@xxxxxxxx= ipd.it> > wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > I was recently writing a paper about threshold estimation in hearing and > at some point I stopped. > > > > Let suppose you are estimating a frequency discrimination threshold with = a > classic 2-down 1-up staircase rule (Levitt, 1971). Theoretically, you cou= ld > approach the threshold from below or from above, I repeat this every year > to 1st year students when I teach them the method of limits! In practice, > however, in psychoacoustics we rarely-to-never approach the threshold fro= m > below. > > > > Is there any reason for this "tradition"? I know the psychometric functio= n > should be symmetric below and above threshold! But this does not explain > the "tradition"! > > > > All the best from "it is almost winter" North East Italy. > > m > > --000000000000599085060a6ae60f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"auto"><div>Just to add on to that,</div><div dir=3D"auto"> <= /div><div dir=3D"auto">Is that also the reason why we normally pick right e= ar to start the test when the person doesn't complain about any asymmet= ry.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"> </div><div dir=3D"auto">To consider th= e right ear advantage to make the person be more able to "optimally de= tect" the sound?</div><div dir=3D"auto"> </div><div dir=3D"auto">Th= anks,</div><div dir=3D"auto">Amith <div class=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D= "auto"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, 18 Nov 2023, 10:36 Obe= rfeld-Twistel, Daniel, <<a href=3D"mailto:oberfeld@xxxxxxxx">oberfel= d@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote: </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st= yle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div lang=3D"DE" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wrap:break-wo= rd"> <div class=3D"m_-3430415125104498290WordSection1"> Hi Massimo, =C2=A0 I totally agree with Dick. An adaptive proced= ure works regardless of the starting values you set =E2=80=93 after all, it= =E2=80=99s one of the main reasons to use an adaptive procedure that you don=E2=80=99t need to know the =E2= =80=9Cthreshold=E2=80=9D in advance. However, for fostering the participant=E2=80= =99s understanding of the task and for their motivation, it certainly seems= better to start with a condition where they can likely give a correct response.</sp= an> =C2=A0 Just a cautionary note, I would not term this= =E2=80=9Capproach from above=E2=80=9D as in a method of limits. In the lat= ter task, we know that the approach from above almost certainly gives results a different measured =E2=80=9Cth= reshold=E2=80=9D than an approach from below (due to =E2=80=9Chysteresis=E2= =80=9D-like response biases). In an adaptive procedure, regardless of where= you start, the relevant stimulus aspect (frequency difference in your case) will at some point arrive at a value where the participant can = respond with (in your example) the proportion correct tracked by the adapti= ve rule. Unless you run too few trials, the tracked point on the psychometr= ic function will be =E2=80=9Cbracketed=E2=80=9D by the adaptive track during a certain number of trials, so that the start= ing value is very unlikely to play any role.</p= > =C2=A0 Greetings from southern Germany, where it=E2= =80=99s also rather cold an rainy right now =F0=9F=98=89</font= > =C2=A0 Daniel =C2=A0 ---------------------------------</font= > Prof. Dr. Daniel Oberfeld-Twistel</font= > Johannes Gutenberg - Universitaet Mainz, Experimental Psycho= logy Wallstrasse 3 55122 Mainz Germany Phone ++49 6131 39 39274 <a href=3D"http://www.staff.uni-mainz.de/oberfeld/" target= =3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">http://www.staff.uni-mainz.de/oberfeld/</a><= u> =C2=A0 <div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm = 4.0pt"> <div> <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm = 0cm 0cm"> From: AUDITORY - Resea= rch in Auditory Perception <<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" = target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a>> On Behalf Of Richard F. Lyon= Sent: Saturday, November 18,= 2023 6:31 AM To: <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITO= RY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= ILL.CA</a> Subject: Re: Estimation of a= uditory sensory thresholds from below: any evidence? </div> </div> =C2=A0 <div> <div> I think the subject needs to feel like they're doing the= job well, so starting easy (above threshold) makes sense.=C2=A0 And they g= et to know very well what signal to listen for.= </div> <div> =C2=A0 </div> <div> If you approach from below, they don't know what signal = to expect, so may not be in an "optimal detector" state of mind.<= u> </div> <div> =C2=A0 </div> <div> Dick </div> <div> =C2=A0 </div> </div> =C2=A0 <div> <div> On Fri, Nov 17, 2023 at 9:19=E2=80=AFPM Massimo Grassi <<= a href=3D"mailto:massimo.grassi@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferr= er">massimo.grassi@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote: </div> <blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c= m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"> <div> Dear all, <div> =C2=A0 </div> <div> I was recently writing a paper about threshold estimation in= hearing and at some point=C2=A0I stopped.=C2=A0</font= > </div> <div> =C2=A0 </div> <div> Let suppose you are estimating a frequency discrimination th= reshold with a classic 2-down 1-up staircase rule (Levitt, 1971). Theoretic= ally, you could approach the threshold from below or from above, I repeat this every year to 1st year students=C2=A0wh= en I teach them the method of limits! In practice, however, in psychoacoust= ics we rarely-to-never approach the threshold from below.</sp= an> </div> <div> =C2=A0 </div> <div> Is there any reason for this "tradition"? I know= =C2=A0the psychometric function should be symmetric below and above thresho= ld! But this does not explain the "tradition"!</spa= n> </div> <div> =C2=A0 </div> <div> All the best from "it is almost winter" North East= Italy. </div> <div> m </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote></div></div></div> --000000000000599085060a6ae60f--

This message came from the mail archive
postings/2023/
maintained by:

DAn Ellis <dpwe@ee.columbia.edu>
Electrical Engineering Dept., Columbia University