Re: [AUDITORY] Number of critical bands in human hearing? (James Johnston )

Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Number of critical bands in human hearing? From: James Johnston <audioskeptic@xxxxxxxx> Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 21:17:35 -0700 --00000000000021ef8e06055e139a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A "critical band" or better an "ERB" is defined at any point on the cochlea= . The "number" of them is therefore an odd question. If you stack ERB's next to each other, that's a more meaningful question, but even then what happens at low frequencies is still under some debate the last I've seen. So, maybe the question of "translate ERB to Frequency Range" is a better question, and then you can stack them end to end if you must, but speaking as someone who has written a lot of different masking threshold calculations for various audio codecs, you really need to have much finer resolution than that, and then handle the "overlap" so that for any given frequency, you're close to using an ERB centered at that frequency. Even 'centered' is a bit of a tricky question since you'd like to have some invariance of shape across different centers, but that's more than I want to write at 11PM tonight. :) On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 9:12=E2=80=AFPM Smits, J.C.M. (Cas) <c.smits@xxxxxxxx= damumc.nl> wrote: > The number of 24 CB refers (probably) to the Bark scale (Zwicker 1961, > JASA). But it covers only the frequencies upto 15.5 kHz. So you need a fe= w > more to get to 20 kHz=E2=80=A6 > > > > Best, > > Cas Smits > > > > *Van:* AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception < > AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> *Namens *Richard F. Lyon > *Verzonden:* 14 September 2023 07:21 > *Aan:* AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx > *Onderwerp:* Re: Number of critical bands in human hearing? > > > > I think critical bands are not discrete countable things. > > But if you want to divide up the range of 20 Hz to 20 kHz into CB-size > bands, then there should be an answer, though it will be more at low soun= d > levels than at high sound levels. 24 sounds plausible for moderate sound > level. If you count ERBs at low level, you'll get more than that, maybe > about 40. > > Dick > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 9:14=E2=80=AFPM David Jackson Morris <dmorris@xxxxxxxx= .ku.dk> > wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > In teaching an undergrad course on hearing science the students have > asked, how many critical bands are there in normal healthy hearing? The > text that we use says that there are 24. If I ask ChatGPT it also cites > Fletcher and Munson=E2=80=99s estimation of 24, but what would it know. .= . > > > > Am I right in suspecting that this may have been revised upwards at some > stage (?). Is the collective wisdom of the list able to help with this o= r > point to an authoritative source? > > > > Cheers > > David > > > > > > *David Jackson Morris, PhD, LTCL* > > Associate Professor/Lektor > > > > *University of Copenhagen/K=C3=B8benhavns Universitet* > > Speech Pathology and Audiology/Audiologop=C3=A6di > > Department of Nordic Studies and Linguistics/Institut for Nordiske Studie= r > og Sprogvidenskab > > Emil Holms Kanal 2 > > 2300 Copenhagen S/K=C3=B8benhavn S > > > > Department Homepage > <https://nors.ku.dk/english/staff/?pure=3Den/persons/398661> > > > > > > - > > > > S=C3=A5dan beskytter vi persondata > <https://informationssikkerhed.ku.dk/persondatabeskyttelse/privatlivspoli= tik/> > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > AmsterdamUMC disclaimer : www.amsterdamumc.org/disclaimers > --=20 James D. (jj) Johnston Chief Scientist, Immersion Networks --00000000000021ef8e06055e139a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>A "critical band" or better an "E= RB" is defined at any point on the cochlea. </div>The "num= ber" of them is therefore an odd question.=C2=A0 If you stack ERB'= s next to each other, that's a more meaningful question, but even then = what happens at low frequencies is still under some debate the last I'v= e seen. </div>So, maybe the question of "translate ERB to Frequ= ency Range" is a better question, and then you can stack them end to e= nd if you must, but speaking as someone who has written a lot of different = masking threshold calculations for various audio codecs, you really need to= have much finer resolution than that, and then handle the "overlap&qu= ot; so that for any given frequency, you're close to using an ERB cente= red at that frequency. Even 'centered' is a bit of a tricky questio= n since you'd like to have some invariance of shape across different ce= nters, but that's more than I want to write at 11PM tonight. :) </di= v> <div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On T= hu, Sep 14, 2023 at 9:12=E2=80=AFPM Smits, J.C.M. (Cas) <<a href=3D"mail= to:c.smits@xxxxxxxx">c.smits@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote: </div= ><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border= -left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"msg-243420= 5711684206654"> <div lang=3D"NL"> <div class=3D"m_-2434205711684206654WordSection1"> The number of 24 = CB refers (probably) to the Bark scale (Zwicker 1961, JASA). But it covers = only the frequencies upto 15.5 kHz. So you need a few more to get to 20 kHz=E2=80=A6</= span> =C2=A0<= /u> Best,</= u> Cas Smits<= u> =C2=A0<= /u> Van: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Per= ception <<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">A= UDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a>> Namens Richard F. Lyon Verzonden: 14 September 2023 07:21 Aan: <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">A= UDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a> Onderwerp: Re: Number of critical bands in human hearing?<= /u> =C2=A0 <div> <div> I think critical bands are not discrete countable th= ings. </div> <div> But if you want to divide up the range of 20 Hz to 2= 0 kHz into CB-size bands, then there should be an answer, though it will be= more at low sound levels than at high sound levels.=C2=A0 24 sounds plausi= ble for moderate sound level.=C2=A0 If you count ERBs at low level, you'll get more than that, maybe about 40.<u= > </div> <div> Dick </div> <div> =C2=A0 </div> </div> =C2=A0 <div> <div> On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 9:14=E2=80=AFPM David Jackso= n Morris <<a href=3D"mailto:dmorris@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">dmorris= @xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote: </div> <blockquote style=3D"border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:non= e none none solid;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(2= 04,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt"> <div> <div> <div> Dear all, =C2=A0= In teaching an undergrad course= on hearing science the students have asked, how many critical bands are th= ere in normal healthy hearing? The text that we use says that there are 24.=C2=A0 =C2=A0If I ask ChatGPT it also cites Fletche= r and Munson=E2=80=99s estimation of 24, but what would it know. . . =C2=A0= =C2=A0= Am I right in suspecting that t= his may have been revised upwards at some stage (?).=C2=A0 Is the collectiv= e wisdom of the list able to help with this or point to an authoritative source?=C2=A0 = =C2=A0= Cheers= David<= u> =C2=A0= =C2=A0= <div> <div> David Jackson Morris, PhD, LTCL<spa= n lang=3D"DA"> Associate Professor/Lektor =C2=A0</sp= an> University of Copenhagen/K=C3=B8benhavns Unive= rsitet Speech Pathology and Audiology/Audiologop=C3=A6di= Department of Nordic Studies and Linguistics/Institu= t for Nordiske Studier og Sprogvidenskab= Emil Holms Kanal 2<u= > 2300 Copenhagen S/K=C3=B8benhavn S =C2=A0= <a href=3D"https://nors.ku.dk/english/staff/?pure=3D= en/persons/398661" target=3D"_blank">De= partment Homepage</a><= /p> =C2=A0= =C2=A0= =C2=A0 -</spa= n> =C2=A0= <a href=3D"h= ttps://informationssikkerhed.ku.dk/persondatabeskyttelse/privatlivspolitik/= " target=3D"_blank">S=C3=A5dan beskytter vi persondata</a><= /span> </div> </div> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> ______________________________________________________ AmsterdamUMC disclaimer : <a href=3D"http://www.amsterdamumc.org/disclaimer= s" target=3D"_blank">www.amsterdamumc.org/disclaimers</a></sp= an> </div> </div> </div></blockquote></div> -- <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"><div di= r=3D"ltr"><div>James D. (jj) Johnston</div><div> </div><div>Chief Scient= ist, Immersion Networks </div></div></div> --00000000000021ef8e06055e139a--

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