Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Number of critical bands in human hearing? From: Martin Braun <mb@xxxxxxxx> Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 21:10:37 +0200Dies ist eine mehrteilige Nachricht im MIME-Format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01D9E74F.E8CD1F90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, The idea that the size of critical bands (CB) is similar along the = audible spectrum and that their number could thus be estimated has never = been based on evidence. For more than 25 years there is evidence, however, that the CBs have = their structural and functional basis in the auditory midbrain. Their = number could as yet not be determined in any animal, but their size = varied widely around 4 semitones. C. E. Schreiner, G. Langner: Laminar fine structure of frequency = organization in auditory midbrain. In: Nature vol 388, nr 6640, = 383=E2=80=93386, doi:10.1038/41106 M. Egorova, G. Ehret: Tonotopy and inhibition in the midbrain inferior = colliculus shape spectral resolution of sounds in neural critical bands. = In: The European journal of neuroscience, vol 28, nr 4, 2008, = 675=E2=80=93692, doi:10.1111/j.1460-9568.2008.06376.x M. S. Malmierca, M. A. Izquierdo, S. Cristaudo, O. Hern=C3=A1ndez, D. = P=C3=A9rez-Gonz=C3=A1lez, E. Covey, D. L. Oliver: A discontinuous = tonotopic organization in the inferior colliculus of the rat. In: The = Journal of neuroscience, vol 28, nr 18, 2008, 4767=E2=80=934776, = doi:10.1523/JNEUROSCI.0238-08.2008 Greetings, Martin Braun From: David Jackson Morris=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2023 4:59 PM To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx=20 Subject: Number of critical bands in human hearing? Dear all, =20 In teaching an undergrad course on hearing science the students have = asked, how many critical bands are there in normal healthy hearing? The = text that we use says that there are 24. If I ask ChatGPT it also = cites Fletcher and Munson=E2=80=99s estimation of 24, but what would it = know. . . =20 =20 Am I right in suspecting that this may have been revised upwards at some = stage (?). Is the collective wisdom of the list able to help with this = or point to an authoritative source? =20 =20 Cheers David =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01D9E74F.E8CD1F90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:v =3D=20 "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o =3D=20 "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w =3D=20 "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m =3D=20 "http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml"><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"> <STYLE>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </STYLE> <STYLE><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @xxxxxxxx {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @xxxxxxxx {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @xxxxxxxx {font-family:Verdana; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0cm; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; mso-ligatures:standardcontextual; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;} span.EmailStyle17 {mso-style-type:personal-compose; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:windowtext;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;} @xxxxxxxx WordSection1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:3.0cm 2.0cm 3.0cm 2.0cm;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} --></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY lang=3DDA style=3D"WORD-WRAP: break-word" dir=3Dltr = vLink=3D#954f72 link=3D#0563c1> <DIV dir=3Dltr> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000"> <DIV><FONT size=3D4 face=3D"Segoe UI">Dear all,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D4 face=3D"Segoe UI"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D4 face=3D"Segoe UI">The idea that the size of critical = bands (CB)=20 is similar along the audible spectrum and that their number could thus = be=20 estimated has never been based on evidence.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D4 face=3D"Segoe UI"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D4 face=3D"Segoe UI">For more than 25 years there is = evidence,=20 however, that the CBs have their structural and functional basis in the = auditory=20 midbrain. Their number could as yet not be determined in any animal, but = their=20 size varied widely around 4 semitones.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV id=3Dcite_note-PMID9237756-1=20 style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0.1em; COUNTER-INCREMENT: mw-ref-extends-parent = 1 mw-references 1; COUNTER-RESET: mw-ref-extends-child 0; = BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(234,243,255)"><FONT=20 face=3D"Segoe UI"><FONT size=3D4><SPAN> </SPAN><SPAN = class=3Dreference-text>C. E.=20 Schreiner, G. Langner:<SPAN> </SPAN><I>Laminar fine structure of = frequency=20 organization in auditory=20 midbrain.</I><SPAN> </SPAN>In:<SPAN> </SPAN><I>Nature vol</I> = 388, nr=20 6640, 383=E2=80=93386,<SPAN> </SPAN><A title=3Ddoi:10.1038/41106 = class=3Dextiw=20 style=3D"TEXT-DECORATION: none; BACKGROUND: none transparent scroll = repeat 0% 0%; COLOR: rgb(51,102,187); overflow-wrap: break-word"=20 href=3D"https://doi.org/10.1038/41106">doi:10.1038/41106</A></SPAN></FONT= ></FONT></DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0.1em; COUNTER-INCREMENT: mw-ref-extends-parent = 1 mw-references 1; COUNTER-RESET: mw-ref-extends-child 0; = BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(234,243,255)"><FONT=20 face=3D"Segoe UI"><FONT size=3D4><SPAN=20 class=3Dreference-text></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV id=3Dcite_note-PMID18702690-2=20 style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0.1em; COUNTER-INCREMENT: mw-ref-extends-parent = 1 mw-references 1; COUNTER-RESET: mw-ref-extends-child 0"><FONT=20 face=3D"Segoe UI"><FONT size=3D4><SPAN class=3Dreference-text>M. = Egorova, G.=20 Ehret:<SPAN> </SPAN><I>Tonotopy and inhibition in the midbrain = inferior=20 colliculus shape spectral resolution of sounds in neural critical=20 bands.</I><SPAN> </SPAN>In:<SPAN> </SPAN><I>The European = journal of=20 neuroscience, vol</I> 28, nr 4, 2008, = 675=E2=80=93692,<SPAN> </SPAN><A=20 title=3Ddoi:10.1111/j.1460-9568.2008.06376.x class=3Dextiw=20 style=3D"TEXT-DECORATION: none; BACKGROUND: none transparent scroll = repeat 0% 0%; COLOR: rgb(51,102,187); overflow-wrap: break-word"=20 href=3D"https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1460-9568.2008.06376.x">doi:10.1111/j.1= 460-9568.2008.06376.x</A></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0.1em; COUNTER-INCREMENT: mw-ref-extends-parent = 1 mw-references 1; COUNTER-RESET: mw-ref-extends-child 0"><FONT=20 face=3D"Segoe UI"><FONT size=3D4><SPAN=20 class=3Dreference-text></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV id=3Dcite_note-PMID18448653-3=20 style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0.1em; COUNTER-INCREMENT: mw-ref-extends-parent = 1 mw-references 1; COUNTER-RESET: mw-ref-extends-child 0"><FONT=20 face=3D"Segoe UI"><FONT size=3D4><SPAN class=3Dreference-text>M. S. = Malmierca, M. A.=20 Izquierdo, S. Cristaudo, O. Hern=C3=A1ndez, D. P=C3=A9rez-Gonz=C3=A1lez, = E. Covey, D. L.=20 Oliver:<SPAN> </SPAN><I>A discontinuous tonotopic organization in = the=20 inferior colliculus of the=20 rat.</I><SPAN> </SPAN>In:<SPAN> </SPAN><I>The Journal of=20 neuroscience,</I><SPAN> </SPAN>vol 28, nr 18, 2008,=20 4767=E2=80=934776,<SPAN> </SPAN><A = title=3Ddoi:10.1523/JNEUROSCI.0238-08.2008=20 class=3Dextiw=20 style=3D"TEXT-DECORATION: none; BACKGROUND: none transparent scroll = repeat 0% 0%; COLOR: rgb(51,102,187); overflow-wrap: break-word"=20 href=3D"https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.0238-08.2008">doi:10.1523/JNEUR= OSCI.0238-08.2008</A></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0.1em; COUNTER-INCREMENT: mw-ref-extends-parent = 1 mw-references 1; COUNTER-RESET: mw-ref-extends-child 0"><FONT=20 face=3D"Segoe UI"><FONT size=3D4><SPAN=20 class=3Dreference-text></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0.1em; COUNTER-INCREMENT: mw-ref-extends-parent = 1 mw-references 1; COUNTER-RESET: mw-ref-extends-child 0"><FONT=20 face=3D"Segoe UI"><FONT size=3D4><SPAN=20 class=3Dreference-text>Greetings,</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0.1em; COUNTER-INCREMENT: mw-ref-extends-parent = 1 mw-references 1; COUNTER-RESET: mw-ref-extends-child 0"><FONT=20 face=3D"Segoe UI"><FONT size=3D4><SPAN=20 class=3Dreference-text></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0.1em; COUNTER-INCREMENT: mw-ref-extends-parent = 1 mw-references 1; COUNTER-RESET: mw-ref-extends-child 0"><FONT=20 face=3D"Segoe UI"><FONT size=3D4><SPAN class=3Dreference-text>Martin=20 Braun</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0.1em; COUNTER-INCREMENT: mw-ref-extends-parent = 1 mw-references 1; COUNTER-RESET: mw-ref-extends-child 0"><FONT=20 face=3D"Segoe UI"><FONT size=3D4><SPAN=20 class=3Dreference-text></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT size=3D4=20 face=3D"Segoe UI"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: = "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; = DISPLAY: inline'> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt tahoma"> <DIV><FONT size=3D4 face=3D"Segoe UI"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5"> <DIV style=3D"font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A = title=3Ddmorris@xxxxxxxx>David=20 Jackson Morris</A> </DIV> <DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 13, 2023 4:59 PM</DIV> <DIV><B>To:</B> <A = title=3DAUDITORY@xxxxxxxx>AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</A>=20 </DIV> <DIV><B>Subject:</B> Number of critical bands in human=20 hearing?</DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: = "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; = DISPLAY: inline'> <DIV class=3DWordSection1> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN lang=3DEN-US>Dear all,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN lang=3DEN-US>In teaching an undergrad course = on hearing=20 science the students have asked, how many critical bands are there in = normal=20 healthy hearing? The text that we use says that there are = 24. If I=20 ask ChatGPT it also cites Fletcher and Munson=E2=80=99s estimation of = 24, but what would=20 it know. . . <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN lang=3DEN-US>Am I right in suspecting that = this may have=20 been revised upwards at some stage (?). Is the collective wisdom = of the=20 list able to help with this or point to an authoritative source? =20 <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN lang=3DEN-US>Cheers<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN lang=3DEN-US>David</SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P> <P = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p></o:p> </P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></H= TML> ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01D9E74F.E8CD1F90--