Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] [External] Re: [AUDITORY] Biases in career evolution From: Jan Schnupp <000000e042a1ec30-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 20:12:41 +0800--000000000000753a7c05fdd985a7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't have a solution for the social inequalities that people are flagging here, but I think I can answer Deniz' question about what happens if you discover a flaw in a preprint you have posted: to the best of my knowledge, most preprint servers allow authors to upload updated versions of previously posted manuscripts. So authors who no longer have reason to be confident in a previously uploaded result could fairly effortlessly submit an update that flags previously unnoticed problems and revises conclusions that may no longer be warranted. Whether they will make the effort is another question.... Of course, flaws can be discovered after peer review in regular articles too. And authors may or may not be conscientious and humble enough to issue timely corrigenda. I hope all of us would. None of us is infallible. Sooner or later any of us can/will get something wrong, which is usually perfectly fine if that mistake becomes a valuable learning opportunity. Best wishes, Jan On Sun, 11 Jun 2023, 17:17 Baskent, D (kno), < 00000187abab8d23-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > > Dear all, theBob, > > These are good thoughts. I also wanted to add to it, that, we are all > equally responsible for the turn-around times and fairness of peer review > as we are each others' reviewers. So if we collectively decide we should > speed up the process and we should be fairer, we should all chime in. > > I have one question, coming from my own unfamiliarity with preprints: It > happens at times that a paper has a flaw, for example, in study design or > something equally crucial, and this only becomes clear during peer-review= . > What happens to the pre-print then, and is there a way to make it public > also of such flaw? I assume newer versions or peer-reviewed and published > versions can be added, but I am talking about a situation where the > preprint may have to be withdrawn. Is there a concern that by that time > some potentially faulty information was already disseminated? > > Cheers, > Deniz > > -------------------------- > Prof. dr. ir. D. Ba=C5=9Fkent > Speech Perception Lab (dB SPL) > Department of Otorhinolaryngology > School of Behavioral and Cognitive Neuroscience (BCN) > W.J. Kolff Institute for Biomedical Engineering and Materials Science > University Medical Center Groningen (UMCG) > University of Groningen (RUG) > Tel: +31 (0) 50 3612540 (KNO Office) > Mobile: =E2=80=AD+31 6 25651377=E2=80=AC > Visiting address: UMCG, Hanzeplein 1, Room P4.220 > Website (also for dB SPL): dbaskent.org > ------------------------------ > *Van:* AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception < > AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> namens McMurray, Bob <bob-mcmurray@xxxxxxxx> > *Verzonden:* zaterdag 10 juni 2023 16:21 > *Aan:* AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> > *Onderwerp:* Re: [External] Re: [AUDITORY] Biases in career evolution > > Hi Colleagues- > > This has been a really interesting discussion so far, and I'm glad these > issues are coming out, even if they raise some uncomfortable issues. > > I'd like to redirect back to Arxiv services. Why are these related? > > Start from the fact that scientific publishing is slow. We can all agree > on that. Arxiv services can be fast. In fact, I recently submitted a > paper to JASA and simultaneously posted it to PsyArxiv. A colleague saw = it > that same day and tweeted it out. Probably a few hundred people saw thei= r > tweet and some of them even wrote me! Four days later, it made it throug= h > JASA preprocessing and arrived on that same colleague's desk as the actio= n > editor! My paper literally made it out to 200 colleagues before it even > got to the same person to send out for review. Sigh. > > But now consider how these delays and barriers might relate to the > diversity of voices in auditory sciences: people of different genders, > races and nationalities, people at different career stages (students , > pre-trenure faculty, and even senior colleagues who are shifting into > auditory science), people with significant responsibilities outside of > work, emeritus faculty. > > This leads to two ideas. First, different people face different career > and personal demands. When you consider it from this perspective, Arxiv > services can play an extremely valuable role. Second, the lags in peer > review may manifest very differently for different people. Even if a pap= er > is objectively good and accepted on those grounds, a new participant in t= he > field, may be subject to additional scrutiny (an extra round of review, > additional issues that need to be clarified) than a more established one. > Some people may face longer delays because they have additional teaching > (e.g., they are at a smaller college), family responsibilities, or a lar= ge > lab with lots of demands. All of this means that even if peer-review is > objective, it is not equal for different people. > > This is not to bypass the need for peer review -- that is the final > arbiter of scientific acceptability (at least until something better come= s > along). But in light of all of this, pre-prints contribute to addressing= a > number of problems. > > - Publication rates are slow and variable. The speed at which a paper > gets through peer-review can also be subject to all sorts of personal > factors. Tt is thus easy to be "scooped" on a new finding, not becaus= e you > actually discovered it later, but because the journal that you chose h= as a > longer review process or a longer time to publication (that happened t= o my > own dissertation), or because your personal factors lead to a longer > delay. A preprint can get your finding out there with a DOI and a da= te on > it. > > - Peer-review is designed to advise a Journal editor, not the > scientist. It is often not constructive and quite discouraging. The = kind > of comments one gets on a pre-print are very different . We all like = to > talk about the people who succeeded despite their challenges. But as = David > pointed out -- what about the people who are discouraged and leave the > field? Preprints can help people get supportive advice and connect wi= th > the people that can help mentor them. > > - Some of us may be the only auditory scientist at our institution. > For an early career scientist. or someone from a traditionally exclude= d > group, preprints, academic social media, and the kind of informal > conversations that result from these things can be a helpful source of > networking. > > - Some of us are working on a timeline. A doctoral student only has 5 > years before they have to go on the market, a new faculty member may o= nly > have 6 years before tenure (and three for a contract renewal), and man= y of > us face 5 year deadlines for grant renewals. A preprint is not a true > scientific product and should never be treated that way. But it is a = way > to demonstrate to the field (grant reviewers, search committees, and > faculty evaluation committees) that the work is "done" (even if it wil= l be > 2-3 years before it is actually accepted). > > - Much of our evaluation relies on reputation (right or wrong). We > ask for letters when people go up for promotion. Grants are often rev= iewed > (right or wrong) in part on the reputation of the scholars. This shou= ld > not be subject to the 1-3 year delay imposed by traditional publishing= . For > a new scientist (or an old scientist switching fields) pre-prints can = help > build reputation while the peer-review process unfolds. seen my own > students get great feedback from senior colleagues in response to a > preprint and it's made a difference in their careers. > > - Finally, it stinks to finish a well-crafted study only to discover > that another lab is working on something similar or has just finished = it. > More established people avoid this easily -- we have an established > network, we communicate directly to each other, and we generally know = the > kinds of things that we're all working on. However, newer people=E2= =80=94or people > who have struggled to build that network=E2=80=94may struggle to acces= s this. > Conferences obviously help, but with three ASA, ARO, AAAS, and ASHA (n= ot to > mention all the conferences that aren't quite auditory but are relevan= t ), > people can't just travel enough. Preprints help. > > I apologize in advance for the discoursive email. But I was sucked into > Arxiving kicking and screaming by my own junior colleagues and students. > I'm glad I did. And I haven't really seen the benefits of preprints > articulated yet. This is important not just for younger people but for > older people too. I'm strongly committed to peer review (and do a lot of > it), although we can all make it work better. But the benefits of > preprints -- *particularly to emerging scholars -- *far outweigh the few > minutes it takes to post. > > But that said, we should all be thinking of how these issues pervade our > scientific culture... including peer review. Reviewer 2 could take a few > extra minutes to be kind and offer helpful advice.. Reviewer 2 might fin= d > it useful to remember that that one minor experiment they asked for might > be a lot more difficult if the student who wrote the paper has left the > field, the faculty member is at a teaching college with less access > research materials, the grant that funded the work is expired, or someone > had to take a leave of absence to care for a family member (all situation= s > that result in papers that never get published but live on preprint > servers). Science should be objective, but it is a personal exercise for > all of us and it is silly to ignore that. > > In my view, many of these issues are being led by a new generation of > younger scientists who are more diverse, both intellectually and > demographically. We would be wise to listen. > > theBob > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception < > AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> on behalf of David McAlpine < > david.mcalpine@xxxxxxxx> > *Sent:* Saturday, June 10, 2023 4:48 AM > *To:* AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> > *Subject:* [External] Re: [AUDITORY] Biases in career evolution > > I strongly disagree Brian. The explicit connection of review with general > bias operates out of those leading scientific nations that host the > important journals and from which the vast majority of reviewers are draw= n. > These are inseparable. > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 10 Jun 2023, at 7:44 pm, Brian FG Katz (SU) < > brian.katz@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BF > > With the aim of providing at least a clearer forum for this discussion, > let us at least provide a relevant message header. > > > > I would then only like to add/point out that which scientific questions > and peer-review journal publications are international by nature and affe= ct > us all equally, questions of > gender/racial/religious/economic/nationality/genetic/age/etc. biases *and > how they are being addressed* is highly cultural and regional around the > world, even specific to different institutions. As such, generalizations > and observations of the presence of issues, or lack thereof, are going to > be equally regional in nature. > > > > I would therefore only recommend that if there are any further > discussions on this topic here, in this international forum, that such > caveats are considered when both presenting and defending arguements. > > > > -- > > Brian FG Katz > > Equipe LAM : Lutheries Acoustique Musique > > Sorbonne Universit=C3=A9, CNRS, Institut =E2=88=82'Alembert > > > > > ------------------------------ > De inhoud van dit bericht is vertrouwelijk en alleen bestemd voor de > geadresseerde(n). Anderen dan de geadresseerde(n) mogen geen gebruik make= n > van dit bericht, het niet openbaar maken of op enige wijze verspreiden of > vermenigvuldigen. Het UMCG kan niet aansprakelijk gesteld worden voor een > incomplete aankomst of vertraging van dit verzonden bericht. > > The contents of this message are confidential and only intended for the > eyes of the addressee(s). Others than the addressee(s) are not allowed to > use this message, to make it public or to distribute or multiply this > message in any way. The UMCG cannot be held responsible for incomplete > reception or delay of this transferred message. > --000000000000753a7c05fdd985a7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"auto">I don't have a solution for the social inequalities t= hat people are flagging here, but I think I can answer Deniz' question = about what happens if you discover a flaw in a preprint you have posted: to= the best of my knowledge, most preprint servers allow authors to upload up= dated versions of previously posted manuscripts. So authors who no longer h= ave reason to be confident in a previously uploaded result could fairly eff= ortlessly submit an update that flags previously unnoticed problems and rev= ises conclusions that may no longer be warranted. Whether they will make th= e effort is another question....=C2=A0<div dir=3D"auto">Of course, flaws ca= n be discovered after peer review in regular articles too. And authors may = or may not be conscientious and humble enough to issue timely corrigenda. I= hope all of us would. None of us is infallible. Sooner or later any of us = can/will get something wrong, which is usually perfectly fine if that mista= ke becomes a valuable learning opportunity.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><b= r></div><div dir=3D"auto">Best wishes,=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></d= iv><div dir=3D"auto">Jan=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br><div dir=3D"auto"= ><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_= quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, 11 Jun 2023, 17:17 Bas= kent, D (kno), <<a href=3D"mailto:00000187abab8d23-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx= cgill.ca">00000187abab8d23-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br>= </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l= eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Dear all, theBob,</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> These are good thoughts. I also wanted to add to it, that, we are all equal= ly responsible for the turn-around times and fairness of peer review as we = are each others' reviewers. So if we collectively decide we should spee= d up the process and we should be fairer, we should all chime in.=C2=A0</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> I have one question, coming from my own unfamiliarity with preprints: It ha= ppens at times that a paper has a flaw, for example, in study design or som= ething equally crucial, and this only becomes clear during peer-review. Wha= t happens to the pre-print then, and is there a way to make it public also of such flaw? I assume newer ver= sions or peer-reviewed and published versions can be added, but I am talkin= g about a situation where the preprint may have to be withdrawn. Is there a= concern that by that time some potentially faulty information was already disseminated?</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Cheers,</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Deniz</div> <div id=3D"m_6706368253862337787Signature"> <div> <div id=3D"m_6706368253862337787divtagdefaultwrapper" dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"= font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans= -serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <div style=3D"font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px"> <div style=3D"font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px"> <div><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><br> <span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif"></s= pan></font></div> <span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif"></s= pan> <div><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><span><span><span style=3D"font-size:= 10pt;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif">--------------------------</= span><br> <span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif">Pro= f. dr. ir.=C2=A0D. Ba=C5=9Fkent</span></span></span></font></div> <span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif"></s= pan> <div><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><span><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;f= ont-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif">Speech Perception Lab (dB SPL)<br> </span></span></font> <div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(= 32,33,36)"> <span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif">Dep= artment of Otorhinolaryngology</span><br> <span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif">Sch= ool of Behavioral and Cognitive Neuroscience (BCN)</span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(= 32,33,36)"> <span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;colo= r:black">W.J. Kolff Institute for Biomedical Engineering and Materials Scie= nce</span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(= 32,33,36)"> <span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif">Uni= versity Medical Center Groningen (UMCG)</span><br> <span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif">Uni= versity of Groningen (RUG)</span></div> <font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><span><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-f= amily:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif">Tel: +31 (0) 50 3612540 (KNO Office)</s= pan></span></font></div> <div><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><span><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;f= ont-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif">Mobile:=C2=A0=E2=80=AD+31 6 256513= 77=E2=80=AC</span></span></font></div> <span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif"></s= pan> <div><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><span><span><span id=3D"m_67063682538= 62337787ms-rterangepaste-start"></span><span><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;= font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif"></span> <div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,Helvetic= a,sans-serif">Visiting address: UMCG, Hanzeplein 1, Room P4.220</span><br> <span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif"></s= pan></div> <span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif"></s= pan> <div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,Helvetic= a,sans-serif">Website (also for dB SPL): </span><a href=3D"http://dbaskent.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer"= ><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif">db= askent.org</span></a><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><span><span><span> </span><span id=3D"m_6706368253862337787ms-rterangepaste-end"></span></span= ></span></font></div> </span></span></span></font></div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <div id=3D"m_6706368253862337787appendonsend"></div> <hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%"> <div id=3D"m_6706368253862337787divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Ca= libri, sans-serif" style=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>Van:</b> A= UDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception <<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= STS.MCGILL.CA" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= A</a>> namens McMurray, Bob <<a href=3D"mailto:bob-mcmurray@xxxxxxxx= " target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">bob-mcmurray@xxxxxxxx</a>><br> <b>Verzonden:</b> zaterdag 10 juni 2023 16:21<br> <b>Aan:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" r= el=3D"noreferrer">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a> <<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITO= RY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= ILL.CA</a>><br> <b>Onderwerp:</b> Re: [External] Re: [AUDITORY] Biases in career evolution<= /font> <div>=C2=A0</div> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Hi Colleagues-</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> This has been a really interesting discussion so far, and I'm glad thes= e issues are coming out, even if they raise some uncomfortable issues.=C2= =A0</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> I'd like to redirect back to Arxiv services.=C2=A0 Why are these relate= d?=C2=A0</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Start from the fact that scientific publishing is slow.=C2=A0 We can all ag= ree on that.=C2=A0 Arxiv services can be fast.=C2=A0 In fact, I recently su= bmitted a paper to JASA and simultaneously posted it to PsyArxiv.=C2=A0 A c= olleague saw it that same day and tweeted it out.=C2=A0 Probably a few hundred people saw their tweet and some of them even wrote me!=C2=A0= Four days later, it made it through JASA preprocessing and arrived on that= same colleague's desk as the action editor!=C2=A0 My paper literally m= ade it out to 200 colleagues before it even got to the same person to send out for review.=C2=A0 Sigh.</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> But now consider how these delays and barriers might relate to the diversit= y of voices in auditory sciences: people of different genders, races and na= tionalities, people at different career stages (students , pre-trenure facu= lty, and even senior colleagues who are shifting into auditory science),=C2=A0 people with significant res= ponsibilities outside of work, emeritus faculty.=C2=A0 =C2=A0</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> This leads to two ideas.=C2=A0 First, different people face different caree= r and personal demands. When you consider it from this perspective, Arxiv s= ervices can play an extremely valuable role.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Second, the lags i= n peer review may manifest very differently for different people.=C2=A0 Even if a paper is objectively good and accepted o= n those grounds, a new participant in the field, may be subject to addition= al scrutiny (an extra round of review, additional issues that need to be cl= arified) than a more established one.=C2=A0 Some people may face longer delays because they have additional teaching (= e.g., they are at a=C2=A0 smaller college), family responsibilities, or a l= arge lab with lots of demands.=C2=A0=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-family:Calibr= i,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">All of this means that even if peer-review is objective, it is not equal for d= ifferent people.=C2=A0</span></div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12p= t;color:rgb(0,0,0)">This is not to bypass the need for peer review -- that = is the final arbiter of scientific acceptability (at least until something = better comes along).=C2=A0 But in light of all of this, pre-prints contribute to addressing a number of problems.= =C2=A0</span><br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <ul> <li style=3D"font-size:12pt;list-style-type:"- ""><span style=3D"= margin:0px"><span style=3D"margin:0px">Publication rates are slow and varia= ble.=C2=A0 The speed at which a paper gets through peer-review can also be = subject to all sorts of personal factors.=C2=A0 Tt is thus easy to be "scooped" on a new finding, not because you actually = discovered it later, but because the journal that you chose has a longer re= view process or a longer time to publication (that happened to my own disse= rtation), or because your personal factors lead to a longer delay.=C2=A0 =C2=A0A preprint can get your finding out th= ere with a DOI and a date on it.=C2=A0</span></span> <div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif= ;list-style-type:"- ";color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-si= ze:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br> </span></span></div> </li><li style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-s= erif;list-style-type:"- ";color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-si= ze:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Peer-review is designed to advise a Journal edito= r, not the scientist.=C2=A0 It is often not constructive and quite discoura= ging.=C2=A0 The kind of comments one gets on a pre-print are very different .=C2=A0 We all like to talk about the pe= ople who succeeded despite their challenges.=C2=A0 But as David pointed out= -- what about the people who are discouraged and leave the field?=C2=A0 Pr= eprints can help people get supportive advice and connect with the people that can help mentor them.=C2=A0</span><br> </span> <div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif= ;list-style-type:"- ";color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-si= ze:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br> </span></span></div> </li><li style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-s= erif;list-style-type:"- ";color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-si= ze:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Some of us may be the only auditory scientist at = our institution.=C2=A0 For an early career scientist. or someone from a tra= ditionally excluded group, preprints, academic social media, and the kind of informal conversations that result = from these things can be a helpful source of networking.</span></span> <div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif= ;list-style-type:"- ";color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-si= ze:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br> </span></span></div> </li><li style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-s= erif;list-style-type:"- ";color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-si= ze:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Some of us are working on a timeline.=C2=A0 A doc= toral student only has 5 years before they have to go on the market, a new = faculty member may only have 6 years before tenure (and three for a contract renewal), and many of us face 5 ye= ar deadlines for grant renewals.=C2=A0 A preprint is not a true scientific = product=C2=A0 and should never be treated that way. But it is a way to demo= nstrate to the field (grant reviewers, search committees, and faculty evaluation committees) that the work is "done= " (even if it will be 2-3 years before it is actually accepted).=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0</span></span> <div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif= ;list-style-type:"- ";color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-si= ze:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br> </span></span></div> </li><li style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-s= erif;list-style-type:"- ";color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-si= ze:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Much of our evaluation relies on reputation (righ= t or wrong).=C2=A0 We ask for letters when people go up for promotion.=C2= =A0 Grants are often reviewed (right or wrong) in part on the reputation of the scholars.=C2=A0 This should not be subjec= t to the 1-3 year delay imposed by traditional publishing. For a new scient= ist (or an old scientist switching fields) pre-prints can help build reputa= tion while the peer-review process unfolds.=C2=A0 seen my own students get great feedback from senior colleagues in response= to a preprint and it's made a difference in their careers.=C2=A0</span= ></span> <div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif= ;list-style-type:"- ";color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> </li><li style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-s= erif;list-style-type:"- ";color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-si= ze:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Finally, it stinks to finish a well-crafted study= only to discover that another lab is working on something similar or has j= ust finished it.=C2=A0 More established people avoid this easily -- we have an established network, we communicate= directly to each other, and we generally know the kinds of things that we&= #39;re all working on.=C2=A0 However, newer people=E2=80=94or people who ha= ve struggled to build that network=E2=80=94may struggle to access this.=C2=A0 Conferences obviously help, but with three ASA, ARO, AA= AS, and ASHA (not to mention all the conferences that aren't quite audi= tory but are relevant ), people can't just travel enough.=C2=A0 Preprin= ts help.</span></span></li></ul> <div><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz= e:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica= ,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">I apologize in advance for the= discoursive email.=C2=A0 But I was sucked into Arxiving kicking and screaming by my own junior colleagues and studen= ts.=C2=A0 I'm glad I did.=C2=A0 And I haven't really seen the benef= its of preprints articulated yet.=C2=A0 This is important not just for youn= ger people but for older people too. I'm strongly committed to peer review (and do a lot of it), although we can all make it work bett= er.=C2=A0 But the benefits of preprints -- <i>particularly to emerging scholars -- </i>far outweigh the few minutes it= takes to post.</span></span></div> <div><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz= e:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica= ,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br> </span></span></div> <div><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz= e:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica= ,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">But that said, we should all b= e thinking of how these issues pervade our scientific culture... including peer review.=C2=A0 Reviewer 2 could ta= ke a few extra minutes to be kind and offer helpful advice..=C2=A0 Reviewer= 2 might find it useful to remember that that one minor experiment they ask= ed for might be a lot more difficult if the student who wrote the paper has left the field, the faculty member is at a= teaching college with less access research materials, the grant that funde= d the work is expired, or someone had to take a leave of absence to care fo= r a family member (all situations that result in papers that never get published but live on preprint server= s).=C2=A0 Science should be objective, but it is a personal exercise for al= l of us and it is silly to ignore that.=C2=A0 =C2=A0</span></span></div> <div><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz= e:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br> </span></div> <div><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz= e:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">In my view, many of these issues are being led by = a new generation of younger scientists who are more diverse, both intellect= ually and demographically.=C2=A0 We would be wise to listen.</span><br> </div> <div><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz= e:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br> </span></div> <div><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz= e:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">theBob</span></div> <div><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz= e:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br> </span></div> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div id=3D"m_6706368253862337787x_appendonsend"></div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%"> <div id=3D"m_6706368253862337787x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"= Calibri, sans-serif" style=3D"font-size:11pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>From:</b>= AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception <<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= LISTS.MCGILL.CA" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= .CA</a>> on behalf of David McAlpine <<a href=3D"mailto:david.mcalpin= e@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">david.mcalpine@xxxxxxxx<= /a>><br> <b>Sent:</b> Saturday, June 10, 2023 4:48 AM<br> <b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" re= l=3D"noreferrer">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a> <<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITOR= Y@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= LL.CA</a>><br> <b>Subject:</b> [External] Re: [AUDITORY] Biases in career evolution</font> <div>=C2=A0</div> </div> <div><font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"> <div>I strongly disagree Brian. The explicit connection of review with gene= ral bias operates out of those leading scientific nations that host the imp= ortant journals and from which the vast majority of reviewers are drawn. Th= ese are inseparable.<br> <br> Sent from my iPad<br> <br> > On 10 Jun 2023, at 7:44 pm, Brian FG Katz (SU) <<a href=3D"mailto:b= rian.katz@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">bria= n.katz@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br> > <br> > =EF=BB=BF<br> > With the aim of providing at least a clearer forum for this discussion= , let us at least provide a relevant message header.<br> > <br> > I would then only like to add/point out that which scientific question= s and peer-review journal publications are international by nature and affe= ct us all equally, questions of gender/racial/religious/economic/nationalit= y/genetic/age/etc. biases *and how they are being addressed* is highly cultural and regional around the world= , even specific to different institutions. As such, generalizations and obs= ervations of the presence of issues, or lack thereof, are going to be equal= ly regional in nature. <br> > <br> > I would therefore only recommend that if there are any further discuss= ions on this topic here, in this international forum, that such caveats are= considered when both presenting and defending arguements. <br> > <br> > --<br> > Brian FG Katz<br> > Equipe LAM : Lutheries Acoustique Musique<br> > Sorbonne Universit=C3=A9, CNRS, Institut =E2=88=82'Alembert<br> > <br> > <br> </div> </span></font></div> </div> <hr> De inhoud van dit bericht is vertrouwelijk en alleen bestemd voor de geadre= sseerde(n). Anderen dan de geadresseerde(n) mogen geen gebruik maken van di= t bericht, het niet openbaar maken of op enige wijze verspreiden of vermeni= gvuldigen. Het UMCG kan niet aansprakelijk gesteld worden voor een incomplete aankomst of vertraging van dit verzonde= n bericht. <br> <br> The contents of this message are confidential and only intended for the eye= s of the addressee(s). Others than the addressee(s) are not allowed to use = this message, to make it public or to distribute or multiply this message i= n any way. The UMCG cannot be held responsible for incomplete reception or delay of this transferred message. </div> </blockquote></div> --000000000000753a7c05fdd985a7--