Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] [External] Re: [AUDITORY] Long/Low & Short/High? From: "McMurray, Bob" <bob-mcmurray@xxxxxxxx> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2022 13:10:54 +0000--_000_CH2PR04MB6773DB87E831E7DE4591D342893C9CH2PR04MB6773namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Lori and Fred- To me this is quite reminiscent of all the old VOT / F0 / duration / tradin= g relations - if we treat VOT/F0 as frequency based, and duration as time = based you should see the same things. I know that John Kingston did some G= arner Paradigm work on this a long time ago to establish whether the cues w= ere separable or integral. I wonder if it would be useful to use the Garne= r paradigm to do the same for frequency/duration of tones? Kingston, J. (2005). Ears to categories: New arguments for autonomy. In S. = Frota, M. Vigario, & M. J. Freitas (Eds.), Prosodies: With special referenc= e to Iberian language (pp. 177-222). Mouton de Gruyter. Best, theBob ________________________________ From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx>= on behalf of David McAlpine <david.mcalpine@xxxxxxxx> Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2022 11:18 PM To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> Subject: [External] Re: [AUDITORY] Long/Low & Short/High? (Off the top of my head, so here goes) From a purely information processing= perspective, with a brain 'normalisation' chaser, these are relatively low= frequencies where phase-locking is a 'thing'. Purely in terms of accumulat= ing information about the signals (I'm guessing 'the brain' doesn't know or= care about your task), the same number of spikes would take longer to accu= mulate for a lower frequency (fewer cycles, fewer spikes, therefore less 'i= nformation'). just a hunch but move into the non-phase locking region above= 4 kHz (for those who can still hear!) and see what happens. ________________________________ From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx>= on behalf of Lori Holt <lholt@xxxxxxxx> Sent: 02 November 2022 07:00 To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> Subject: [AUDITORY] Long/Low & Short/High? Dear auditory aficionados, Fred Dick and I have been doing some work with a long-short tone duration i= dentification task (50ms vs 90ms) where tone frequency is chosen from one o= f x values in a truncated range (e.g., 800Hz, 920Hz, 1000Hz, 1080Hz, 1200Hz= ). (You might be familiar with this paradigm from Mondor & Bregman, 1994). We have found a weak but quite reliable effect, where subjects tend to judg= e lower frequencies more often as 'long', and higher frequencies as 'short'= . This was unexpected yet remarkably consistent across a lot of experiment= s. We have been unable to track down mention of this in the literature. We did dig up a few papers that purported to be on the general topic of fre= quency effects on duration judgments, but these ended up being about differ= ent things entirely... We wondered whether anyone might be familiar with literature we've missed- = or maybe even have encountered something like this before yourself? Best wishes, Lori & Fred ______________________________________________________________ loriholt Professor | Department of Psychology Professor | Neuroscience Institute Co-Director | Center for the Neural Basis of Cognition Co-Director | Behavioral Brain (B2) Research Training Program (NIGMS) Carnegie Mellon University loriholt@xxxxxxxx<mailto:loriholt@xxxxxxxx> | www.psy.cmu.edu/~holtlab/<http:= //www.psy.cmu.edu/~holtlab> pronouns: she, her, hers --_000_CH2PR04MB6773DB87E831E7DE4591D342893C9CH2PR04MB6773namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html> <head> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-= 1"> <style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none;"> P {margin-top:0;margin-bo= ttom:0;} </style> </head> <body dir=3D"ltr"> <div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size= : 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class= =3D"elementToProof"> Hi Lori and Fred-</div> <div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size= : 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class= =3D"elementToProof"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size= : 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class= =3D"elementToProof"> To me this is quite reminiscent of all the old VOT / F0 / <span style=3D"ba= ckground-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);display:inline !important" class=3D"Conte= ntPasted0"> duration / </span>trading relations - if we treat VOT/F0 as freq= uency based, and duration as time based you should see the same things.&nbs= p; I know that John Kingston did some Garner Paradigm work on this a long t= ime ago to establish whether the cues were separable or integral. I wonder if it would be useful to use the Garner paradi= gm to do the same for frequency/duration of tones?</div> <div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size= : 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class= =3D"elementToProof"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size= : 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class= =3D"elementToProof ContentPasted1"> Kingston, J. (2005). Ears to categories: New arguments for autonomy. In S. = Frota, M. Vigario, & M. J. Freitas (Eds.), Prosodies: With special refe= rence to Iberian language (pp. 177-222). Mouton de Gruyter. <br class=3D"ContentPasted1"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size= : 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class= =3D"elementToProof ContentPasted1"> Best, </div> <div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size= : 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class= =3D"elementToProof ContentPasted1"> <span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica,= sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">theBob</span><br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size= : 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class= =3D"elementToProof ContentPasted1"> <br> </div> <div id=3D"signature_bookmark"></div> <div id=3D"appendonsend"></div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12p= t; color:rgb(0,0,0)" class=3D"elementToProof"> <br> </div> <hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%"> <div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" co= lor=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> AUDITORY - Research i= n Auditory Perception <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> on behalf of David M= cAlpine <david.mcalpine@xxxxxxxx><br> <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, November 6, 2022 11:18 PM<br> <b>To:</b> AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx><br> <b>Subject:</b> [External] Re: [AUDITORY] Long/Low & Short/High?</font> <div> </div> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div class=3D"x_elementToProof" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetic= a,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0); background-color:rgb(255,25= 5,255)"> (Off the top of my head, so here goes) From a purely information processing= perspective, with a brain 'normalisation' chaser, these are relatively low= frequencies where phase-locking is a 'thing'. Purely in terms of accumulat= ing information about the signals (I'm guessing 'the brain' doesn't know or care about your task), the same = number of spikes would take longer to accumulate for a lower frequency (few= er cycles, fewer spikes, therefore less 'information'). just a hunch but mo= ve into the non-phase locking region above 4 kHz (for those who can still hear!) and see what happens.</div> <div id=3D"x_appendonsend"></div> <hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%"> <div id=3D"x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" = color=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> AUDITORY - Research= in Auditory Perception <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> on behalf of Lori = Holt <lholt@xxxxxxxx><br> <b>Sent:</b> 02 November 2022 07:00<br> <b>To:</b> AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx><br> <b>Subject:</b> [AUDITORY] Long/Low & Short/High?</font> <div> </div> </div> <div> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div class=3D"x_x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><= br clear=3D"all"> </div> <div> <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"x_x_gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_sign= ature"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"> <div class=3D"x_x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">D= ear auditory aficionados,</div> <div class=3D"x_x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><= br> </div> <div class=3D"x_x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"> <div><font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">F<span= class=3D"x_x_gmail_default">red Dick</span> and I have been doing some wor= k w<span class=3D"x_x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-seri= f"></span>ith a long-short tone duration identification task (50ms vs 90ms) where tone frequency is chosen from one of x values in= a truncated range (e.g., 800Hz, 920Hz, 1000Hz, 1080Hz, 1200Hz).  = ;(You might be familiar with this paradigm from Mondor & Bregman, 1994)= . </span></font></div> <div><font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"></span= ></font></div> <div> <div> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-family= :verdana,sans-serif"><br> We have found a weak but quite reliable effect, where subjects tend to judg= e lower frequencies more often as 'long', and higher frequencies as 'short'= . This was unexpected yet remarkably consistent across a lot of exper= iments. We have been unable to track down<span class=3D"x_x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-se= rif"> </span> mention of this in the literature. <br> <br> We did dig up a few papers that purported to be on the general topic of fre= quency effects on duration judgments, but these ended up being about differ= ent things entirely... <br> <br> <span class=3D"x_x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">= We wondered whether</span> anyone might be familiar with literature we've m= issed- or maybe even have encountered something like this before yourself?&= nbsp; <br> </span></font></div> <div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-family= :verdana,sans-serif"><br> </span></font></div> <div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-family= :verdana,sans-serif"><span class=3D"x_x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family= :verdana,sans-serif">Best wishes,</span></span></font></div> <div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-family= :verdana,sans-serif"><span class=3D"x_x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family= :verdana,sans-serif">Lori & Fred</span></span></font></div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br> </div> <div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">___________________________________________= ___________________</div> <span style=3D"font-family:"arial black",sans-serif; font-size:la= rge"><font color=3D"#999999">lori</font></span><span style=3D"font-family:&= quot;arial black",sans-serif; font-size:large"><font color=3D"#444444"= >holt</font></span> <div> <div style=3D"font-size:small"><font color=3D"#999999"><font face=3D"tahoma= , sans-serif">Professor </font></font><font color=3D"#999999"><font face=3D"tahoma, sans-serif"><fo= nt color=3D"#999999"><span style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">| </span></font>Department of Psychology</font></font></div> <div style=3D"font-size:small"><font color=3D"#999999"><span style=3D"font-= family:tahoma,sans-serif">Professor | Neuroscience Instit= ute <br> </span></font></div> <div style=3D"font-size:small"><font color=3D"#999999"><span style=3D"font-= family:tahoma,sans-serif">Co-Director | Center for the Neural Basis of Cogn= ition<br> </span></font></div> <div style=3D"font-size:small"><font color=3D"#999999"><span style=3D"font-= family:tahoma,sans-serif">Co-Director | Behavioral Brain (B2) Research Trai= ning Program (NIGMS)<br> </span></font></div> <div style=3D"font-size:small"><font face=3D"tahoma, sans-serif" color=3D"#= 999999">Carnegie Mellon University</font></div> <div style=3D"font-size:small"><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)"><font= face=3D"tahoma, sans-serif"><a href=3D"mailto:loriholt@xxxxxxxx" data-auth= =3D"NotApplicable">loriholt@xxxxxxxx</a> | </font><font face=3D"ta= homa, sans-serif"><a href=3D"http://www.psy.cmu.edu/~holtlab" data-auth=3D"= NotApplicable">www.psy.cmu.edu/~holtlab/</a></font></span></div> </div> <font color=3D"#999999"><font size=3D"1">pronouns: she, her, hers</font></f= ont> <div><br> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </body> </html> --_000_CH2PR04MB6773DB87E831E7DE4591D342893C9CH2PR04MB6773namp_--