Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Long/Low & Short/High? From: John <"Beerends, J.G. "> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2022 08:57:14 +0000--_000_289ad8dc21b4485e9b3f01779df33c8ctnonl_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The fact that low pitch require longer time to identify is logical but this= effect is disrupted in complex tones by the fact that subjects tend to swi= tch to the analytic mode of pitch perception when complex tones are shorten= ed (i.e., they tend to hear the spectral pitches instead of the virtual one= s), see: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2808930/ John beerends http://beesikk.nl/JohnBeerends.htm From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx>= On Behalf Of David McAlpine Sent: maandag 7 november 2022 06:18 To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Long/Low & Short/High? (Off the top of my head, so here goes) From a purely information processing= perspective, with a brain 'normalisation' chaser, these are relatively low= frequencies where phase-locking is a 'thing'. Purely in terms of accumulat= ing information about the signals (I'm guessing 'the brain' doesn't know or= care about your task), the same number of spikes would take longer to accu= mulate for a lower frequency (fewer cycles, fewer spikes, therefore less 'i= nformation'). just a hunch but move into the non-phase locking region above= 4 kHz (for those who can still hear!) and see what happens. ________________________________ From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx<= mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx>> on behalf of Lori Holt <lholt@xxxxxxxx= EDU<mailto:lholt@xxxxxxxx>> Sent: 02 November 2022 07:00 To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx<mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= TS.MCGILL.CA<mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx>> Subject: [AUDITORY] Long/Low & Short/High? Dear auditory aficionados, Fred Dick and I have been doing some work with a long-short tone duration i= dentification task (50ms vs 90ms) where tone frequency is chosen from one o= f x values in a truncated range (e.g., 800Hz, 920Hz, 1000Hz, 1080Hz, 1200Hz= ). (You might be familiar with this paradigm from Mondor & Bregman, 1994). We have found a weak but quite reliable effect, where subjects tend to judg= e lower frequencies more often as 'long', and higher frequencies as 'short'= . This was unexpected yet remarkably consistent across a lot of experiment= s. We have been unable to track down mention of this in the literature. We did dig up a few papers that purported to be on the general topic of fre= quency effects on duration judgments, but these ended up being about differ= ent things entirely... We wondered whether anyone might be familiar with literature we've missed- = or maybe even have encountered something like this before yourself? Best wishes, Lori & Fred ______________________________________________________________ loriholt Professor | Department of Psychology Professor | Neuroscience Institute Co-Director | Center for the Neural Basis of Cognition Co-Director | Behavioral Brain (B2) Research Training Program (NIGMS) Carnegie Mellon University loriholt@xxxxxxxx<mailto:loriholt@xxxxxxxx> | www.psy.cmu.edu/~holtlab/<http:= //www.psy.cmu.edu/~holtlab> pronouns: she, her, hers This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If you a= re not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, you are= requested to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO accepts no liab= ility for the content of this e-mail, for the manner in which you use it an= d for damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent to the electroni= c transmission of messages. --_000_289ad8dc21b4485e9b3f01779df33c8ctnonl_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micr= osoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:= //www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"> <meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"> <!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </style><![endif]--><style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @xxxxxxxx {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @xxxxxxxx {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @xxxxxxxx {font-family:Verdana; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} @xxxxxxxx {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} @xxxxxxxx {font-family:"Arial Black"; panose-1:2 11 10 4 2 1 2 2 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0cm; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} span.xgmaildefault {mso-style-name:x_gmail_default;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-size:10.0pt;} @xxxxxxxx WordSection1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} --></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> </head> <body lang=3D"NL" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wrap:break-w= ord"> <div class=3D"WordSection1"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E= N-US">The fact that low pitch require longer time to identify is logical bu= t this effect is disrupted in complex tones by the fact that subjects tend = to switch to the analytic mode of pitch perception when complex tones are shortened (i.e., they tend to hear the s= pectral pitches instead of the virtual ones), see:<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E= N-US"><a href=3D"https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2808930/">https://pubmed.n= cbi.nlm.nih.gov/2808930/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E= N-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E= N-US">John beerends<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E= N-US"><a href=3D"http://beesikk.nl/JohnBeerends.htm">http://beesikk.nl/John= Beerends.htm</a><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E= N-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:E= N-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <div> <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm = 0cm 0cm"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang= =3D"EN-US"> AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= CGILL.CA> <b>On Behalf Of </b>David McAlpine<br> <b>Sent:</b> maandag 7 november 2022 06:18<br> <b>To:</b> AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx<br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Long/Low & Short/High?<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:= 12.0pt;color:black">(Off the top of my head, so here goes) From a purely in= formation processing perspective, with a brain 'normalisation' chaser, thes= e are relatively low frequencies where phase-locking is a 'thing'. Purely in terms of accumulating information ab= out the signals (I'm guessing 'the brain' doesn't know or care about your t= ask), the same number of spikes would take longer to accumulate for a lower= frequency (fewer cycles, fewer spikes, therefore less 'information'). just a hunch but move into the non-= phase locking region above 4 kHz (for those who can still hear!) and see wh= at happens.<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"> <hr size=3D"2" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center"> </div> <div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">From:</span></b><span= style=3D"color:black"> AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception <<a h= ref=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a>> on= behalf of Lori Holt <<a href=3D"mailto:lholt@xxxxxxxx">lholt@xxxxxxxx= EW.CMU.EDU</a>><br> <b>Sent:</b> 02 November 2022 07:00<br> <b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= L.CA</a> <<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= ILL.CA</a>><br> <b>Subject:</b> [AUDITORY] Long/Low & Short/High?</span> <o:p></o:p></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> <div> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Verdana",sans-= serif"><br clear=3D"all"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <div> <div> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Ver= dana",sans-serif">Dear auditory aficionados,<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Ver= dana",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ve= rdana",sans-serif">F<span class=3D"xgmaildefault">red Dick</span> and = I have been doing some work with a long-short tone duration identification = task (50ms vs 90ms) where tone frequency is chosen from one of x values in a truncated range (e.g., 800Hz, 920Hz, 1000Hz, 108= 0Hz, 1200Hz). (You might be familiar with this paradigm from Mon= dor & Bregman, 1994). </span><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-f= amily:"Verdana",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <div> <div> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ve= rdana",sans-serif"><br> We have found a weak but quite reliable effect, where subjects tend to judg= e lower frequencies more often as 'long', and higher frequencies as 'short'= . This was unexpected yet remarkably consistent across a lot of exper= iments. We have been unable to track down<span class=3D"xgmaildefault"> </span>mention of this in the literatur= e. <br> <br> We did dig up a few papers that purported to be on the general topic of fre= quency effects on duration judgments, but these ended up being about differ= ent things entirely... <br> <br> <span class=3D"xgmaildefault">We wondered whether</span> anyone might be fa= miliar with literature we've missed- or maybe even have encountered somethi= ng like this before yourself? </span><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-= serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Ver= dana",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span class=3D"xgmaildefault"><span style=3D"font-si= ze:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Best wishes,</span></= span><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-se= rif"><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span class=3D"xgmaildefault"><span style=3D"font-si= ze:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Lori & Fred</span= ></span><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans= -serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt"><o:p> </o:p></s= pan></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt"><o:p> </o:p></s= pan></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt">____________________= __________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Ar= ial Black",sans-serif;color:#999999">lori</span><span style=3D"font-si= ze:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black",sans-serif;color:#444444">hol= t</span> <o:p></o:p></p> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Ta= homa",sans-serif;color:#999999">Professor | Departme= nt of Psychology</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span><= /p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Ta= homa",sans-serif;color:#999999">Professor | Neurosci= ence Institute </span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Ta= homa",sans-serif;color:#999999">Co-Director | Center for the Neural Ba= sis of Cognition</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span><= /p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Ta= homa",sans-serif;color:#999999">Co-Director | Behavioral Brain (B2) Re= search Training Program (NIGMS)</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p= ></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Ta= homa",sans-serif;color:#999999">Carnegie Mellon University</span><span= style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Ta= homa",sans-serif;color:#666666"><a href=3D"mailto:loriholt@xxxxxxxx" ta= rget=3D"_blank">loriholt@xxxxxxxx</a> | <a href=3D"http://www.psy.= cmu.edu/~holtlab" target=3D"_blank">www.psy.cmu.edu/~holtlab/</a></span><sp= an style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;color:#999999">pronou= ns: she, her, hers</span> <o:p></o:p></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <p style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-FA= MILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times Ne= w Roman'; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><font sty= le=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11px" size=3D"3"> </font><p style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=3D"MsoNormal"><font style=3D"= FONT-SIZE: 11px" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif= '; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 8.5pt">This message may contain info= rmation that is not intended for you. If you are not the addressee or if th= is message was sent to you by mistake, you are requested to inform the send= er and delete the message. TNO accepts no liability for the content of this= e-mail, for the manner in which you use it and for damage of any kind resu= lting from the risks inherent to the electronic transmission of messages.<b= r><br></span></font></p></body> </html> --_000_289ad8dc21b4485e9b3f01779df33c8ctnonl_--