Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] EEG purchase From: Jonathan Z Simon <jzsimon@xxxxxxxx> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2022 08:55:55 -0400--Apple-Mail=_04AF15B0-34BA-4110-B38A-E6F10AFA5DFF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 We purchased a new BioSemi this year (with a modified design allowing it = to be used simultaneously with MEG, i.e., without active electrodes). = Our experience has been uniformly positive, with quick & easy gel = application, and working right off the bat with our non-BioSemi = real-time EEG software (because they use open standards).=20 I=E2=80=99ll add a shout-out to the BioSemi USA representative, Lloyd = Smith of Cortech solutions, who has been a fantastic resource throughout = the process. Jonathan -- Jonathan Z. Simon (he/him) University of Maryland Dept. of Electrical & Computer Engineering / Dept. of Biology / = Institute for Systems Research 8223 Paint Branch Dr. College Park, MD 20742 USA Office: 1-301-405-3645, Lab: 1-301-405-9604, Fax: 1-301-314-9281 http://www.isr.umd.edu/Labs/CSSL/simonlab/ > On Aug 18, 2022, at 12:25 PM, Amos Boasson <agboas@xxxxxxxx> wrote: >=20 > Dear Carlos, and list members: > Carlos, keep in mind that in the Biosemi ActiveTwo system a = not-so-widely-known problem exists, of the signal being contaminated by = the dithering process in the Sigma-Delta ADC box, at frequency-multiples = related to the sampling rate. > This problem disturbs mainly if you are interested in spectrum = analysis at higher frequencies, as for examples in studies of the = Frequency Following Response (FFR), where presentation of the stimulus = in alternate polarities leads you to look for a response at double the = stimulus frequency. Because of the 1/f decrement, mechanical = 'side-effects' infiltrating the signal, unremovable, are more and more = disturbing. the higher your frequency region of interest. > Biosemi intends to implement a whole different technology in their = next model (ActiveThree?), which would eliminate this problem, but I = have not seen it on their site yet. > This problem may not disturb some kinds of analysis, but you may want = to consider it. > Good luck with your new lab! > Sincerely, Amos Boasson >=20 > =E2=80=AB=D7=91=D7=AA=D7=90=D7=A8=D7=99=D7=9A =D7=99=D7=95=D7=9D =D7=93=D7= =B3, 17 =D7=91=D7=90=D7=95=D7=92=D7=B3 2022 =D7=91-7:07 =D7=9E=D7=90=D7=AA= =E2=80=AAJan Schnupp=E2=80=AC=E2=80=8F = <=E2=80=AA000000e042a1ec30-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx = <mailto:000000e042a1ec30-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx>=E2=80=AC=E2=80=8F>= :=E2=80=AC > I cannot recommend strongly enough AGAINST the EGI setup. I had = inherited one of their systems. It was terribly buggy. Lost parts of the = signal. Lost triggers. My PhD student lost many months trying to debug = the device or find work-arounds. Their customer service was = unresponsive. It was simply terrible. What rescued my student was that = we were able to get an ANT EEGo system from a friend, which perhaps = hasn't the greatest S/N but it was quite adequate, and at least it was = relatively straight-forward to get to work as advertised and we got some = nice studies done with it. ANT now also offer a sponge cap for their = EEGo system which can reduce prep time. We ordered one but we haven't = received it yet so I can't tell you whether the S/N is adequate.=20 > Under absolutely no circumstances would I ever again waste a single = dollar or minute of my time on anything EGI.=20 >=20 > Best wishes, >=20 > Jan >=20 >=20 > --------------------------------------- > Prof Jan Schnupp > City University of Hong Kong > Dept. of Neuroscience > 31 To Yuen Street,=20 > Kowloon Tong > Hong Kong >=20 > https://auditoryneuroscience.com <https://auditoryneuroscience.com/> > http://jan.schnupp.net <http://jan.schnupp.net/> >=20 > On Mon, 15 Aug 2022 at 10:40, Petter Kallioinen = <000001c5645d28b7-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx = <mailto:000001c5645d28b7-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx>> wrote: > Dear Carlos, > I have used neuroscan a little and EGI a lot, but I do prefer Biosemi. = The system is more simple and modular than EGI. I have done about 250 = recordings with 4-6 year olds in pre-schools using Biosemi. While I do = think it is possible to have good signal in EGI, it is easier to = troubleshoot bad signals in Biosemi, usually a single or a few bad = electrodes that can be fixed with more gel. In EGI problems are often = more vague and indirect. If you use Biosemi 64 channels with children, = time of application can be an issue. Two well trained assistants could = do it in 15-20 minutes, but is is still an issue. Depending on your = research question 32 channels could be good enough and considerably = faster.=20 >=20 > Customer support is fast but brief with Biosemi, and a lot of times I = have solved things based on forum discussions rather than direct = support, I am still more satisfied with support from Biosemi compared to = EGI. Biosemi is more to the point and technical, whereas EGI has a slow = and somewhat bureaucratic support. >=20 > Signal quality should be better with Biosemi active electrodes = compared to EGI, but I have actually not tested this thoroughly. When I = have looked at amplitudes of MMN responses the effects have been quite = similar between EGI and Biosemi. I was surprised by this but it could be = a larger difference in paradigms with fewer events.=20 >=20 > Best wishes! > /Petter Kallioinen, EEG technician at linguistics dept, Stockholm = University =20 >=20 >> On 12 Aug 2022, at 17:20 , Carlos Benitez-Barrera = <000001c4037ab8ae-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx = <mailto:000001c4037ab8ae-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx>> wrote: >>=20 >> Dear Auditory List, >> =20 >> I am planning on purchasing an EEG system for my new lab at = UW-Madison, USA. I have been in contact with several EEG providers, and = I=E2=80=99m still undecisive on which system would be best for my lab. = I=E2=80=99m familiar with Neuroscan and EGI, but I=E2=80=99m actually = leaning towards Biosemi or Brain Products (Brain and Vision in the US). = I run simple auditory paradigms with children (ages 3 to 14) and adults. = The main characteristics that I=E2=80=99m looking for are (not = necessarily in order): >> Ease of use >> Prep cap time (important to minimize with children) >> Customer support >> Signal quality >> =20 >> I=E2=80=99m shooting for a 64-channel system. Also, I=E2=80=99m still = hesitating between saline caps or gel caps. I heard that the Biosemi = caps despite of being gel based are very fast to get going.=20 >> =20 >> Anyway, I=E2=80=99m just looking for some advice from any of you = working with these systems. Any experiences or recommendations will = help! >> =20 >> Thank you in advance for your taking your time to reply! >> =20 >> Sincerely, >> Carlos >=20 --Apple-Mail=_04AF15B0-34BA-4110-B38A-E6F10AFA5DFF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">We = purchased a new BioSemi this year (with a modified design allowing it to = be used simultaneously with MEG, i.e., without active electrodes). Our = experience has been uniformly positive, with quick & easy gel = application, and working right off the bat with our non-BioSemi = real-time EEG software (because they use open standards). <div = class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ll add a = shout-out to the BioSemi USA representative, Lloyd Smith of Cortech = solutions, who has been a fantastic resource throughout the = process.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = class=3D"">Jonathan</div><div class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><div = style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: = after-white-space;" class=3D"">--<br class=3D"">Jonathan Z. Simon = (he/him)</div><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: = space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">University of = Maryland<br class=3D"">Dept. of Electrical & = Computer Engineering / Dept. of Biology / Institute for = Systems Research<br class=3D"">8223 Paint Branch Dr.<br class=3D"">College= Park, MD 20742 USA<br class=3D"">Office: 1-301-405-3645, Lab: = 1-301-405-9604, Fax: 1-301-314-9281</div><div style=3D"word-wrap: = break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" = class=3D""><a href=3D"http://www.isr.umd.edu/Labs/CSSL/simonlab/" = class=3D"">http://www.isr.umd.edu/Labs/CSSL/simonlab/</a></div><div><br = class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div = class=3D"">On Aug 18, 2022, at 12:25 PM, Amos Boasson <<a = href=3D"mailto:agboas@xxxxxxxx" class=3D"">agboas@xxxxxxxx</a>> = wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div = dir=3D"rtl" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Dear Carlos, and list = members:</div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Carlos, keep in mind that in = the Biosemi ActiveTwo system a not-so-widely-known problem exists, of = the signal being contaminated by the dithering process in the = Sigma-Delta ADC box, at frequency-multiples related to the sampling = rate.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">This problem disturbs mainly if = you are interested in spectrum analysis at higher frequencies, as for = examples in studies of the Frequency Following Response (FFR), where = presentation of the stimulus in alternate polarities leads you to look = for a response at double the stimulus frequency. Because of the 1/f = decrement, mechanical 'side-effects' infiltrating the signal, = unremovable, are more and more disturbing. the higher your frequency = region of interest.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Biosemi intends to = implement a whole different technology in their next model = (ActiveThree?), which would eliminate this problem, but I have not seen = it on their site yet.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">This problem may = not disturb some kinds of analysis, but you may want to consider = it.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Good luck with your new = lab!</div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Sincerely, Amos = Boasson</div></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div = dir=3D"rtl" class=3D"gmail_attr">=E2=80=AB=D7=91=D7=AA=D7=90=D7=A8=D7=99=D7= =9A =D7=99=D7=95=D7=9D =D7=93=D7=B3, 17 =D7=91=D7=90=D7=95=D7=92=D7=B3 = 2022 =D7=91-7:07 =D7=9E=D7=90=D7=AA =E2=80=AAJan Schnupp=E2=80=AC=E2=80=8F= <=E2=80=AA<a = href=3D"mailto:000000e042a1ec30-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx" = class=3D"">000000e042a1ec30-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx</a>=E2=80=AC=E2=80= =8F>:=E2=80=AC<br class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" = style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid = rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">I cannot = recommend strongly enough AGAINST the EGI setup. I had inherited one of = their systems. It was terribly buggy. Lost parts of the signal. Lost = triggers. My PhD student lost many months trying to debug the device or = find work-arounds. Their customer service was unresponsive. It was = simply terrible. What rescued my student was that we were able to get an = ANT EEGo system from a friend, which perhaps hasn't the greatest S/N but = it was quite adequate, and at least it was relatively straight-forward = to get to work as advertised and we got some nice studies done with it. = ANT now also offer a sponge cap for their EEGo system which can = reduce prep time. We ordered one but we haven't received it yet so = I can't tell you whether the S/N is adequate. <div = class=3D"">Under absolutely no circumstances would I ever again waste a = single dollar or minute of my time on anything EGI. </div><div = class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Best wishes,</div><div = class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Jan<br class=3D""><div = class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" = class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" = class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" = class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div = style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = style=3D"font-size:12.8px" = class=3D"">---------------------------------------</div><div = style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D"">Prof Jan Schnupp<br class=3D"">City = University of Hong Kong<br class=3D"">Dept. of Neuroscience</div><div = class=3D""><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D"">31 To Yuen = Street, </div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D"">Kowloon Tong</span></div><div = style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D"">Hong Kong</div><div = style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><a = href=3D"https://auditoryneuroscience.com/" target=3D"_blank" = class=3D"">https://auditoryneuroscience.com</a></div><div class=3D""><a = href=3D"http://jan.schnupp.net/" target=3D"_blank" = class=3D"">http://jan.schnupp.net</a></div></div></div></div></div></div><= /div></div></div></div></div><br class=3D""></div></div></div><br = class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" = class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, 15 Aug 2022 at 10:40, Petter Kallioinen = <<a href=3D"mailto:000001c5645d28b7-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx" = target=3D"_blank" = class=3D"">000001c5645d28b7-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx</a>> = wrote:<br class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" = style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid = rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <div class=3D""> Dear Carlos, <div class=3D"">I have used neuroscan a little and EGI a lot, but I do = prefer Biosemi. The system is more simple and modular than EGI. I have = done about 250 recordings with 4-6 year olds in pre-schools using = Biosemi. While I do think it is possible to have good signal in EGI, it is easier to troubleshoot bad signals in Biosemi, = usually a single or a few bad electrodes that can be fixed with more = gel. In EGI problems are often more vague and indirect. If you use = Biosemi 64 channels with children, time of application can be an issue. Two well trained assistants could do it in 15-20 = minutes, but is is still an issue. Depending on your research question = 32 channels could be good enough and considerably faster. </div> <div class=3D""><br class=3D""> </div> <div class=3D"">Customer support is fast but brief with Biosemi, and a = lot of times I have solved things based on forum discussions rather than = direct support, I am still more satisfied with support from Biosemi = compared to EGI. Biosemi is more to the point and technical, whereas EGI has a slow and somewhat bureaucratic = support.</div> <div class=3D""><br class=3D""> </div> <div class=3D"">Signal quality should be better with Biosemi active = electrodes compared to EGI, but I have actually not tested this = thoroughly. When I have looked at amplitudes of MMN responses the = effects have been quite similar between EGI and Biosemi. I was surprised by this but it could be a larger difference in paradigms with = fewer events. </div> <div class=3D""><br class=3D""> </div> <div class=3D"">Best wishes!</div> <div class=3D"">/Petter Kallioinen, EEG technician at linguistics dept, = Stockholm University <br class=3D""> <div class=3D""><br class=3D""> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""> <div class=3D"">On 12 Aug 2022, at 17:20 , Carlos Benitez-Barrera <<a = href=3D"mailto:000001c4037ab8ae-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx" = target=3D"_blank" = class=3D"">000001c4037ab8ae-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx</a>> = wrote:</div> <br class=3D""> <div class=3D""> <div = style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-varia= nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t= ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex= t-decoration:none" class=3D""> <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in = 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""> <span style=3D"font-size:11pt" class=3D"">Dear Auditory = List,</span><span class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u = class=3D""></u></span></div> <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in = 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""> <span style=3D"font-size:11pt" class=3D""> </span><span class=3D""><u= class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></div> <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in = 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""> <span style=3D"font-size:11pt" class=3D"">I am planning on purchasing an = EEG system for my new lab at UW-Madison, USA. I have been in contact = with several EEG providers, and I=E2=80=99m still undecisive on which = system would be best for my lab. I=E2=80=99m familiar with Neuroscan and EGI, but I=E2=80=99m actually leaning towards Biosemi or Brain = Products (Brain and Vision in the US). I run simple auditory paradigms = with children (ages 3 to 14) and adults. The main characteristics that = I=E2=80=99m looking for are (not necessarily in order):</span><span = class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></div> <ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-top:0in" class=3D""> <li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in = 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <span style=3D"font-size:11pt" class=3D"">Ease of use</span><u = class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" = style=3D"margin:0in 0in = 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <span style=3D"font-size:11pt" class=3D"">Prep cap time (important to = minimize with children)</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></li><li= class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in = 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <span style=3D"font-size:11pt" class=3D"">Customer support</span><u = class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" = style=3D"margin:0in 0in = 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <span style=3D"font-size:11pt" class=3D"">Signal quality</span><u = class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></li></ul> <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in = 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""> <span style=3D"font-size:11pt" class=3D""> </span><span class=3D""><u= class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></div> <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in = 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""> <span style=3D"font-size:11pt" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m shooting for a = 64-channel system. Also, I=E2=80=99m still hesitating between saline = caps or gel caps. I heard that the Biosemi caps despite of being gel = based are very fast to get going. </span><span class=3D""><u = class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></div> <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in = 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""> <span style=3D"font-size:11pt" class=3D""> </span><span class=3D""><u= class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></div> <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in = 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""> <span style=3D"font-size:11pt" class=3D"">Anyway, I=E2=80=99m just = looking for some advice from any of you working with these systems. Any = experiences or recommendations will help!</span><span class=3D""><u = class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></div> <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in = 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""> <span style=3D"font-size:11pt" class=3D""> </span><span class=3D""><u= class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></div> <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in = 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""> <span style=3D"font-size:11pt" class=3D"">Thank you in advance for your = taking your time to reply!</span><span class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u = class=3D""></u></span></div> <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in = 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""> <span style=3D"font-size:11pt" class=3D""> </span><span class=3D""><u= class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></div> <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in = 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""> <span style=3D"font-size:11pt" class=3D"">Sincerely,</span><span = class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></div> <div style=3D"margin:0in 0in = 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""> <span style=3D"font-size:11pt" class=3D"">Carlos</span></div> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> <br class=3D""> </div> </div> </blockquote></div> </blockquote></div> </div></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" = style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: = normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; = white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; = text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; = line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" = style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: = normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; = white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; = text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; = line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, = 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; = text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br = class=3D""></div></div></div> </div> <br class=3D""></div></body></html>= --Apple-Mail=_04AF15B0-34BA-4110-B38A-E6F10AFA5DFF--