Re: [AUDITORY] Auditory target motion perception in VAE (Brian FG Katz )

Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Auditory target motion perception in VAE From: Brian FG Katz <brian.katz@xxxxxxxx> Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 11:59:28 +0200 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_11F5_01D84A76.EF71F950 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Frederico,=20 =20 Difficult at this stage of what you have presented. These could be = protocol issues, Ambisonic decoder issues, coordinate system issues, = etc.=20 =20 For protocol issues, we had similar difficulties with simply identifying = directional differences between targets, being able to account for = front/back confusions, in this study:=20 =20 L. Simon, A. Andreopoulou, and B. F. G. Katz, =E2=80=9CInvestigation of = perceptual interaural time difference evaluation protocols in a binaural = context,=E2=80=9D Acta Acust united Ac, vol. 102, pp. 129=E2=80=93140, = 2016, doi:10.3813/AAA.918930. =20 Left/Right needs to be well defined, as left/right rotation is not the = same as lateral. As subjects expressly told that sources are only in the = front, or not, etc. =20 I would then invite you to be sur that the sounds your are rendering = over Ambisonics correspond to what you think. Meaning, if you decode = over a virtual speaker array are the right speakers getting the signals = at the right time, I the right direction. As different decoders can = sometimes use different coordinate systems (e.g. where is = (0=C2=B0/0=C2=B0), different channel formats (CAN,FHM, etc.), and = different units (=C2=B0 or radians), this is basic test before any = perceptual issues can be examined.=20 =20 Finally, verify how the Ambisonic to Binaural being carried out, which = HRTFs, which method, Ambisonic decoder options if any, is there a room = effect being added, etc.=20 =20 Best regards, -Brian FG Katz -- Brian FG Katz, Research Director, CNRS Groupe Lutheries - Acoustique =E2=80=93 Musique Sorbonne Universit=C3=A9, CNRS, UMR 7190, Institut Jean Le Rond = =E2=88=82'Alembert=20 http://www.dalembert.upmc.fr/home/katz =20 From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception = <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Frederico Pereira Sent: mercredi 6 avril 2022 17:28 To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx Subject: [AUDITORY] Auditory target motion perception in VAE =20 Dear Auditory List, Hoping this email finds you all well. =20 Me and colleagues have been conducting some experiments with = participants with the aim of characterizing the perception of movement = of a virtual auditory target stimulus. =20 The experiment is fundamentally simple: The participant listens over = headphones to a 600ms band-passed noise signal (150 to 8000Hz) and = responds to which of leftward or rightward movement direction it was = perceived. Signals are always coded to be in the frontal hemisphere, in = the horizontal plane describing different arc lengths (varying angular = velocity). We are running these experiments at various orders of = ambisonic encoding, =20 Supported by the "snapshot" theory, that motion emerges from successive = discrimination of target location over time and, confirmation that = higher encoding orders result in better localisation of fixed targets, = we expect better discrimination at higher orders, thus the reduction of = the Minimum audible movement angle (MAMA) at finer encoding resolutions, = but: * So far this is not happening....my first reaction was to verify ITDs = and ILDs produced by the software engine, they seem in agreement to = stimulus movement. The engine we are using is quite popular amongst = scientists, being distributed (open source) by a highly reputed = investigation team.=20 * Something that we are noticing is a greater difficulty from = participants to recognize towards the front arc movements in relation to = towards the back (but all in the frontal hemisphere). It may be that = this difficulty arises from a poorer ability on localising the onset of = the stimulus, as it is more lateralized in frontward movements...? There is limited literature on the perceptual evaluation of auditory = moving targets, even less so on virtual audio environments (stimulus = presented over headphones). Are there any of you who came across experiences or studies reporting = similar hurdles?=20 =20 I=C2=B4d be very interested in hearing from you if you have any comments = or further questions, or just willing to discuss this facet of spatial = hearing.=20 =20 Best, =20 - Frederico =20 =20 --=20 Frederico Pereira Mobile:+61409066693 Email:pereira.frederico@xxxxxxxx = <mailto:Email%3Apereira.frederico@xxxxxxxx>=20 ------=_NextPart_000_11F5_01D84A76.EF71F950 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:x=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:excel" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta = http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><meta = name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered = medium)"><style></style></head><body lang=3DEN-GB link=3Dblue = vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Dear Frederico, = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Difficult = at this stage of what you have presented. These could be protocol = issues, Ambisonic decoder issues, coordinate system issues, etc. = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>For = protocol issues, we had similar difficulties with simply identifying = directional differences between targets, being able to account for = front/back confusions, in this study: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><span = style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>L. Simon, A. Andreopoulou, and B. = F. G. Katz, =E2=80=9CInvestigation of perceptual interaural time = difference evaluation protocols in a binaural context,=E2=80=9D Acta = Acust united Ac, vol. 102, pp. 129=E2=80=93140, 2016, = doi:10.3813/AAA.918930.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Left/Right = needs to be well defined, as left/right rotation is not the same as = lateral. As subjects expressly told that sources are only in the front, = or not, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I would = then invite you to be sur that the sounds your are rendering over = Ambisonics correspond to what you think. Meaning, if you decode over a = virtual speaker array are the right speakers getting the signals at the = right time, I the right direction. As different decoders can sometimes = use different coordinate systems (e.g. where is (0=C2=B0/0=C2=B0), = different channel formats (CAN,FHM, etc.), and different units (=C2=B0 = or radians), this is basic test before any perceptual issues can be = examined. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Finally, = verify how the Ambisonic to Binaural being carried out, which HRTFs, = which method, Ambisonic decoder options if any, is there a room effect = being added, etc. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Best = regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>-Brian FG = Katz<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'>--</span><o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Brian FG Katz, Research = Director, CNRS</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DFR = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Groupe Lutheries - Acoustique = =E2=80=93 Musique</span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DFR = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Sorbonne Universit=C3=A9, CNRS, = UMR 7190, Institut Jean Le Rond =E2=88=82'Alembert </span><span = lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DFR = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><a = href=3D"http://www.dalembert.upmc.fr/home/katz">http://www.dalembert.upmc= .fr/home/katz</a></span><span lang=3DFR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DFR = style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US>From:</span></b><span = lang=3DEN-US> AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception = <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Frederico = Pereira<br><b>Sent:</b> mercredi 6 avril 2022 17:28<br><b>To:</b> = AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx<br><b>Subject:</b> [AUDITORY] Auditory target = motion perception in VAE<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Dear = Auditory List,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hoping this email = finds you all well.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>Me and colleagues have been conducting some = experiments with participants with the aim of characterizing the = perception of movement of a virtual auditory target = stimulus.  <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>The = experiment is fundamentally simple: The participant listens over = headphones to a 600ms band-passed noise signal (150 to 8000Hz) and = responds to which of leftward or rightward movement direction it was = perceived. Signals are always coded to be in the frontal hemisphere, in = the horizontal plane describing different arc lengths (varying = angular velocity). We are running these experiments at various orders of = ambisonic encoding,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>Supported by the "snapshot" theory, that = motion emerges from successive discrimination of target location = over time and, confirmation that higher encoding orders result in better = localisation of fixed targets, we expect better discrimination at higher = orders,  thus the reduction of the Minimum audible movement angle = (MAMA) at finer encoding resolutions, but:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><ul = type=3Ddisc><li class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 = level1 lfo1'>So far this is not happening....my first reaction was to = verify ITDs and ILDs produced by the software engine, they seem in = agreement to stimulus movement.  The engine we are using is quite = popular amongst scientists, being distributed (open source) by = a highly reputed investigation team. <o:p></o:p></li><li = class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 = level1 lfo1'>Something that we are noticing is a greater difficulty from = participants to recognize towards the front arc movements in = relation to towards the back (but all in the frontal hemisphere). = It may be that this difficulty arises from a poorer ability on = localising the onset of the stimulus, as it is more lateralized in = frontward movements...?<o:p></o:p></li></ul><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>There is limited literature on the perceptual = evaluation of auditory moving targets, even less so on virtual audio = environments  (stimulus presented over = headphones).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Are there any = of you who came across experiences or studies reporting similar = hurdles? <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>I=C2=B4d be very interested in hearing from you if you = have any comments or further questions, or just willing to discuss this = facet of spatial hearing. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>Best,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>- = Frederico<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal>-- <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Frederico = Pereira<br>Mobile:+61409066693<br><a = href=3D"mailto:Email%3Apereira.frederico@xxxxxxxx" = target=3D"_blank">Email:pereira.frederico@xxxxxxxx</a><o:p></o:p></p></d= iv></div></div></div></div></body></html> ------=_NextPart_000_11F5_01D84A76.EF71F950--

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