Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] [External] Re: Question: same/different judgments across domains. From: "Pisoni, David B." <pisoni@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 10:06:28 +0000--_000_DM6PR08MB43142607D787B0975698C744C6559DM6PR08MB4314namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Max: One solution to your problem about which test to select might be to use the= =934IAX test of paired similarity=94 that I invented in 1971 to study spee= ch discrimination. The differences between AX same vs. different and the 4I= AX test are summarized in a short paper written by Irv Pollack and me back = in 1971. I have attached a pdf of that paper for you to read over. I hope this helps. I agree with Jan Schnupp about the standard AX test of s= ame vs. different. The criteria for sameness is often unclear to an observe= r and may vary from trial to trial depending on the signals presented. That is why I came up with the idea of the test of 4IAX test of paired simi= larity, which preserves some of the attributes of a conventional same-diffe= rent test but provides a benchmark on each trial for =93sameness.=94 Very best wishes with your project=85.David B. Pisoni, Indiana University, = Bloomington, Indiana USA From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx>= on behalf of Jan Schnupp <000000e042a1ec30-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 12:29 AM To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> Subject: [External] Re: Question: same/different judgments across domains. This message was sent from a non-IU address. Please exercise caution when c= licking links or opening attachments from external sources. Same/different judgments are always a bad idea. Unless stimuli are actually= identical, they are not the same, so the observer has to make some sort of= "close enough" judgment which always involves a bit of a fudge in their mi= nds. Much better to play 3 sounds and ask which was the odd one out, or two= pairs and ask which pair was more different. In those cases you have a muc= h more unambiguous way of declaring a response objectively correct or incor= rect. There is no internal "close enough" criterion that may vary from subj= ect to subject or from domain to domain. Playing with duration is tricky. C= ertain categories of sounds have characteristic temporal envelopes and if y= ou make them "much shorter than they should be" then they are no longer goo= d representives of their domain or category. Good luck with your experiment. Jan On Sat, May 8, 2021, 12:34 PM Max Henry <max.henry@xxxxxxxx<mailto:ma= x.henry@xxxxxxxx>> wrote: Hi folks. Long time listener, first time caller... Some friends of mind are setting up an experiment with same/different judge= ments between pairs of sounds. They want to test sounds from a variety of d= omains: speech, music, natural sounds, etc. One of the researchers suggested that listeners will have different listeni= ng strategies depending on the domain, and this might pose a problem for th= e experiment: our sensitivity for difference in pitch, for example, might b= e very acute for musical sounds but much less-so for speech sounds. I have a hunch that if the stimuli were short enough, this might sidestep t= he problem. Ie, if I played you 250 milliseconds of speech, or 250 millisec= onds of music, you would not necessarily use any particular domain-specific= listening strategy to tell the difference. It would simply be =93sound.=94 I suspect this is because a sound that=92s sufficiently short can stay enti= rely in echoic memory. For longer sounds, you have to consolidate the infor= mation somehow, and the way that you consolidate it has to do with the kind= of domain it falls into. For speech sounds, we can throw away the acute pi= tch information. But that=92s just a hunch. I=92m wondering if this rings true for any of yo= u, that is to say, if it reminds you of any particular research. I=92d love= to read about it. It's been a pleasure to follow these e-mails. I'm glad to finally have an e= xcuse to write. Wishing you all well. Max Henry (he/his) Graduate Researcher and Teaching Assistant Music Technology Area McGill University. www.linkedin.com/in/maxshenry<http://www.linkedin.com/in/maxshenry> github.com/maxsolomonhenry<https://github.com/maxsolomonhenry> www.maxhenrymusic.com/<https://www.maxhenrymusic.com/> --_000_DM6PR08MB43142607D787B0975698C744C6559DM6PR08MB4314namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:sc= hemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/of= fice/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1= 252"> <meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"> <style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @xxxxxxxx {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @xxxxxxxx {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} span.EmailStyle18 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:windowtext;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-size:10.0pt;} @xxxxxxxx WordSection1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} --></style> </head> <body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wrap:brea= k-word"> <div class=3D"WordSection1"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hello Max:<o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">One solution to your problem about which test to sel= ect might be to use the =934IAX test of paired similarity=94 that I invente= d in 1971 to study speech discrimination. The differences between AX same v= s. different and the 4IAX test are summarized in a short paper written by Irv Pollack and me back in 1971.<o:p></o:p></p= > <p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have attached a pdf of that paper for you to read = over.<o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">I hope this helps. I agree with Jan Schnupp about th= e standard AX test of same vs. different. The criteria for sameness is ofte= n unclear to an observer and may vary from trial to trial depending on the = signals presented.<o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">That is why I came up with the idea of the test of 4= IAX test of paired similarity, which preserves some of the attributes of a = conventional same-different test but provides a benchmark on each trial for= =93sameness.=94<o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Very best wishes with your project=85.David B. Pison= i, Indiana University, Bloomington, Indiana USA <o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in = 0in 0in"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"fon= t-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">AUDITORY - Research= in Auditory Perception <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> on behalf of Jan S= chnupp <000000e042a1ec30-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx><br> <b>Date: </b>Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 12:29 AM<br> <b>To: </b>AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx><br> <b>Subject: </b>[External] Re: Question: same/different judgments across do= mains.<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:#FFECE5"><span style=3D"font-siz= e:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#82270D">This messag= e was sent from a non-IU address. Please exercise caution when clicking lin= ks or opening attachments from external sources.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Same/different judgments are always a bad idea. Unle= ss stimuli are actually identical, they are not the same, so the observer h= as to make some sort of "close enough" judgment which always invo= lves a bit of a fudge in their minds. Much better to play 3 sounds and ask which was the odd one out, or two pairs and ask w= hich pair was more different. In those cases you have a much more unambiguo= us way of declaring a response objectively correct or incorrect. There is n= o internal "close enough" criterion that may vary from subject to subject or from domain to domain. Playing wi= th duration is tricky. Certain categories of sounds have characteristic tem= poral envelopes and if you make them "much shorter than they should be= " then they are no longer good representives of their domain or category. <o:p></o:p></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Good luck with your experiment. <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jan <o:p></o:p></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> </div> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sat, May 8, 2021, 12:34 PM Max Henry <<a href= =3D"mailto:max.henry@xxxxxxxx">max.henry@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote= :<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i= n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">Hi folk= s. Long time listener, first time caller... <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"><o:p>&n= bsp;</o:p></span></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">Some fr= iends of mind are setting up an experiment with same/different judgements b= etween pairs of sounds. They want to test sounds from a variety of domains:= speech, music, natural sounds, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"><o:p>&n= bsp;</o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">One of = the researchers suggested that listeners will have different listening stra= tegies depending on the domain, and this might pose a problem for the exper= iment: our sensitivity for difference in pitch, for example, might be very acute for musical sounds but much les= s-so for speech sounds.<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"><o:p>&n= bsp;</o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">I have = a hunch that if the stimuli were short enough, this might sidestep the prob= lem. Ie, if I played you 250 milliseconds of speech, or 250 milliseconds of= music, you would not necessarily use any particular domain-specific listening strategy to tell the difference. = It would simply be =93sound.=94<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"><o:p>&n= bsp;</o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">I suspe= ct this is because a sound that=92s sufficiently short can stay entirely in= echoic memory. For longer sounds, you have to consolidate the information = somehow, and the way that you consolidate it has to do with the kind of domain it falls into. For speech sounds, we = can throw away the acute pitch information. <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"><o:p>&n= bsp;</o:p></span></p> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">But tha= t=92s just a hunch. I=92m wondering if this rings true for any of you, that= is to say, if it reminds you of any particular research. I=92d love to rea= d about it.<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"><o:p>&n= bsp;</o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">It's be= en a pleasure to follow these e-mails. I'm glad to finally have an excuse t= o write. Wishing you all well.<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"><o:p>&n= bsp;</o:p></span></p> </div> <div id=3D"m_-3489444030197921230Signature"> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">Max = Henry</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"> (he/his)= <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">Graduat= e Researcher and Teaching Assistant<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">Music T= echnology Area<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">McGi= ll University</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">.<o:p>= </o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"><a href= =3D"http://www.linkedin.com/in/maxshenry" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"= color:#174E86">www.linkedin.com/in/maxshenry</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></= p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"><a href= =3D"https://github.com/maxsolomonhenry" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"co= lor:#174E86">github.com/maxsolomonhenry</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"><a href= =3D"https://www.maxhenrymusic.com/" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:= #174E86">www.maxhenrymusic.com/</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> </div> </body> </html> --_000_DM6PR08MB43142607D787B0975698C744C6559DM6PR08MB4314namp_--