Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Question: same/different judgments across domains. From: Jan Schnupp <000000e042a1ec30-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 10:14:32 +0800--0000000000007eff8605c1dc39d6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Same/different judgments are always a bad idea. Unless stimuli are actually identical, they are not the same, so the observer has to make some sort of "close enough" judgment which always involves a bit of a fudge in their minds. Much better to play 3 sounds and ask which was the odd one out, or two pairs and ask which pair was more different. In those cases you have a much more unambiguous way of declaring a response objectively correct or incorrect. There is no internal "close enough" criterion that may vary from subject to subject or from domain to domain. Playing with duration is tricky. Certain categories of sounds have characteristic temporal envelopes and if you make them "much shorter than they should be" then they are no longer good representives of their domain or category. Good luck with your experiment. Jan On Sat, May 8, 2021, 12:34 PM Max Henry <max.henry@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > Hi folks. Long time listener, first time caller... > > Some friends of mind are setting up an experiment with same/different > judgements between pairs of sounds. They want to test sounds from a varie= ty > of domains: speech, music, natural sounds, etc. > > One of the researchers suggested that listeners will have different > listening strategies depending on the domain, and this might pose a probl= em > for the experiment: our sensitivity for difference in pitch, for example, > might be very acute for musical sounds but much less-so for speech sounds= . > > I have a hunch that if the stimuli were short enough, this might sidestep > the problem. Ie, if I played you 250 milliseconds of speech, or 250 > milliseconds of music, you would not necessarily use any particular > domain-specific listening strategy to tell the difference. It would simpl= y > be =E2=80=9Csound.=E2=80=9D > > I suspect this is because a sound that=E2=80=99s sufficiently short can s= tay > entirely in echoic memory. For longer sounds, you have to consolidate the > information somehow, and the way that you consolidate it has to do with t= he > kind of domain it falls into. For speech sounds, we can throw away the > acute pitch information. > > But that=E2=80=99s just a hunch. I=E2=80=99m wondering if this rings true= for any of you, > that is to say, if it reminds you of any particular research. I=E2=80=99d= love to > read about it. > > It's been a pleasure to follow these e-mails. I'm glad to finally have an > excuse to write. Wishing you all well. > > *Max Henry* (he/his) > Graduate Researcher and Teaching Assistant > Music Technology Area > *McGill University*. > www.linkedin.com/in/maxshenry > github.com/maxsolomonhenry > www.maxhenrymusic.com/ > --0000000000007eff8605c1dc39d6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"auto">Same/different judgments are always a bad idea. Unless st= imuli are actually identical, they are not the same, so the observer has to= make some sort of "close enough" judgment which always involves = a bit of a fudge in their minds. Much better to play 3 sounds and ask which= was the odd one out, or two pairs and ask which pair was more different. I= n those cases you have a much more unambiguous way of declaring a response = objectively correct or incorrect. There is no internal "close enough&q= uot; criterion that may vary from subject to subject or from domain to doma= in. Playing with duration is tricky. Certain categories of sounds have char= acteristic temporal envelopes and if you make them "much shorter than = they should be" then they are no longer good representives of their do= main or category.=C2=A0<div dir=3D"auto">Good luck with your experiment.=C2= =A0</div><div dir=3D"auto">Jan=C2=A0<br><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div></div><= /div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">O= n Sat, May 8, 2021, 12:34 PM Max Henry <<a href=3D"mailto:max.henry@xxxxxxxx= .mcgill.ca">max.henry@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote cl= ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p= adding-left:1ex"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Hi folks. Long time listener, first time caller... <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> <div>Some friends of mind are setting up an experiment with same/different = judgements between pairs of sounds. They want to test sounds from a variety= of domains: speech, music, natural sounds, etc.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>One of the researchers suggested that listeners will have different li= stening strategies depending on the domain, and this might pose a problem f= or the experiment: our sensitivity for difference in pitch, for example, mi= ght be very acute for musical sounds but much less-so for speech sounds.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>I have a hunch that if the stimuli were short enough, this might sides= tep the problem. Ie, if I played you 250 milliseconds of speech, or 250 mil= liseconds of music, you would not necessarily use any particular domain-spe= cific listening strategy to tell the difference. It would simply be =E2=80=9Csound.=E2=80=9D</div> <div><br> </div> <div>I suspect this is because a sound that=E2=80=99s sufficiently short ca= n stay entirely in echoic memory. For longer sounds, you have to consolidat= e the information somehow, and the way that you consolidate it has to do wi= th the kind of domain it falls into. For speech sounds, we can throw away the acute pitch information. <br> </div> <div><br> </div> But that=E2=80=99s just a hunch. I=E2=80=99m wondering if this rings true f= or any of you, that is to say, if it reminds you of any particular research= . I=E2=80=99d love to read about it.</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> It's been a pleasure to follow these e-mails. I'm glad to finally h= ave an excuse to write. Wishing you all well.<br> </div> <div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div id=3D"m_-3489444030197921230Signature"> <div> <div></div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <b>Max Henry</b>=C2=A0(he/his)</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Graduate Researcher and Teaching Assistant</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Music Technology Area</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-se= rif;font-size:10pt"><b>McGill University</b>.</span><br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <span style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px;font-size:1.4rem;background= :rgb(255,255,255);outline:0px;line-height:1.42857;color:rgba(0,0,0,0.9);tex= t-align:start"></span><a href=3D"http://www.linkedin.com/in/maxshenry" targ= et=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer"><span style=3D"color:rgb(23,78,134)">www.l= inkedin.com/in/maxshenry</span></a><span style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;mar= gin:0px;font-size:1.4rem;background:rgb(255,255,255);outline:0px;line-heigh= t:1.42857;color:rgba(0,0,0,0.9);text-align:start"></span><br> </div> <span style=3D"color:rgb(23,78,134)"></span> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <a href=3D"https://github.com/maxsolomonhenry" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nor= eferrer"><span style=3D"color:rgb(23,78,134)">github.com/maxsolomonhenry</s= pan></a><br> </div> <span style=3D"color:rgb(23,78,134)"></span> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt= ;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <a href=3D"https://www.maxhenrymusic.com/" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"norefer= rer"><span style=3D"color:rgb(23,78,134)">www.maxhenrymusic.com/</span></a>= <br> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote></div> --0000000000007eff8605c1dc39d6--