Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Papers on lack of effect of musical training From: "Patel, Aniruddh D." <a.patel@xxxxxxxx> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 15:32:36 +0000--_000_SN6PR05MB5231237F8417FF09A0AD0E04E35D0SN6PR05MB5231namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear List, Following up on Robert Zatorre's insightful post mentioning genetics, some = of you may be interested in this list of 55 articles on genetic studies of = musicality, compiled by a student of mine (Damian Liu). It covers articles= and chapters published through 2018: https://bit.ly/2xeUnow Damian put this together for a 2019 symposium on musicality and genomics; http://www.mcg.uva.nl/musicality2019/index.html If you see articles or chapters that are missing (or newer than those on th= e list), feel free to comment on the Google sheet so we can add them. Here is the one recent study I'm aware of: Niarchou, M., Sathirapongsasuti, J. F., Jacoby, ... & Gordon, R.L. (2019). = Unravelling the genetic architecture of musical rhythm. BioRxiv, 836197. ht= tps://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/836197v1.abstract Regards, Ani ________________________________ From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx>= on behalf of R. Zatorre, Dr. <robert.zatorre@xxxxxxxx> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 10:07 AM To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Papers on lack of effect of musical training Dear list I am enjoying the intellectual debate, which of course, goes a bit off-topi= c at times, but that's fun too. Regarding "correlation is not causation," it is of course literally correc= t. However, sometimes it is used as if it meant "Correlation cannot even im= ply causation under any circumstances. Ever." At which point it shades into= sophistry. (See for instance climate-change deniers who say that greenhous= e gases are merely correlated with temperature increases, and hence cannot = be taken as causal agents.) So a little pragmatism in the interpretation ca= n go a long way, as can a little humility on the part of those making claim= s. Also, in neuroscience at least, the principle of plasticity is fundamentall= y recognized as central to the organization of the nervous system in relati= on to how it optimizes its interactions with the environment. So to believe= that it does not happen in the human brain seems odd. This is logically en= tirely distinct from whether cognitive transfer occurs or not, of course. S= imilarly, everything in biology depends on genetics. So taking that factor = into account is also essential. There are some nice papers from Fredrik Ull=E9n's lab in Stockholm that doc= ument both ends of the nature/nurture continuum. They emphasize the multifactorial nature of genetic and environmental facto= rs on lots of variables that contribute to music-related behaviors. In this= paper for instance, highly relevant to the current debate, they show that = differences in intelligence test scores that appear to be related to musica= l training are better explained by shared genes and environment: Mosing, M. A., Madison, G., Pedersen, N. L., & Ull=E9n, F. (2016). Investig= ating cognitive transfer within the framework of music practice: Genetic pl= eiotropy rather than causality. Developmental Science, 19(3), 504-512. Conversely, in this paper they show that musical training has distinct infl= uences on brain structure even in monozygotic twins who have different musi= cal training: de Manzano, =D6., & Ull=E9n, F. (2018). Same genes, different brains: neuro= anatomical differences between monozygotic twins discordant for musical tra= ining. Cerebral Cortex, 28(1), 387-394. So genes have a huge influence, but environmental variables, including musi= cal training, also must be taken into account. Finally, as a further contribution to rampant self-promotion, I wrote a lit= tle commentary about these issues in relation to music and language learnin= g, which some of you may find useful (or may wish to bash, depending on you= r proclivities): Zatorre, R. J. (2013). Predispositions and plasticity in music and speech l= earning: neural correlates and implications. Science, 342(6158), 585-589. Let's hope we can all head back to our labs soon so we can keep chipping aw= ay at these fascinating questions! Robert Robert Zatorre Montreal Neurological Institute McGill University 514-398-8903 fax: 514-398-1338 www.zlab.mcgill.ca ________________________________ From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx>= on behalf of Jansen Erik <Erik.Jansen@xxxxxxxx> Sent: August 17, 2020 6:04 AM To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: Papers on lack of effect of musical training Hi all I agree with Ian. This also connects to the debates regarding the value of = music, or of art in general. If someone wants to show that music is good fo= r something then this refers to an instrumental conception of music: it yie= lds something of value that is external to the music. However, we can also = view music as having intrinsic value: it is a valuable expression of humank= ind, of what it means to be a human being. Apart from these instrumental an= d autonomous conceptions, one can further argue that the social and psychol= ogical processes that result from musical activity produce meaningful inter= actions and are therefore valuable to human life (i.e. socio-epistemic valu= e). Thus, in my opinion, the researcher=92s motivation may lie with the substan= tiation of either or all of these claims to value. And frankly, ever since the Mozart effect I think psychology has been way t= oo focused on a mere instrumental view of music, the arts and also creativi= ty. As such, I think also researchers sometimes implicitly and uncritically= follow such neoliberal and instrumental rationales in studying music. Just my 2 cts.. Erik Erik Jansen PhD| Associate Professor Capabilities in Care and Wellbeing | R= esearch Center for Social Support and Community Care | HAN University of Ap= plied Sciences Visiting address: Room A3.13b, Kapittelweg<https://maps.google.com/?q=3D13b= ,+Kapittelweg&entry=3Dgmail&source=3Dg> 33, Nijmegen | Postal address: PO B= ox 6960, 6503 GL Nijmegen | T +31 (0)24 353 03 68 | E erik.jansen@xxxxxxxx<ma= ilto:erik.jansen@xxxxxxxx> www.han.nl<http://www.han.nl/> | www.werkplaatssociaaldomeinnijmegen.nl<htt= p://www.werkplaatssociaaldomeinnijmegen.nl/> | In office : Tuesday =96 Fri= day | Secretary | T +31 (0)24 353 03 69 (Helmie Kayser) From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx>= on behalf of Ian Cross <ic108@xxxxxxxx> Reply to: Ian Cross <ic108@xxxxxxxx> Date: Monday, 17 August 2020 at 11:38 To: "AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: Papers on lack of effect of musical training They might also be motivated by the need to produce arguments to substantia= te a value for music in education in the face of neoliberal indifference an= d ineptitude=85 On 17/08/2020 09:27, Colette McKAY wrote: I agree with everyone about the importance of music to humankind. From this= point of view it would be an interesting research study to look at the psy= chological motivations of researchers who run studies to "show" the benefit= s gained by music training for non-music domains of cognition etc. Are they= generally just interested in the scientific study of far transfer of learn= ing effects, with music as an example? Or are they motivated by a need to "= prove" music education has non-music benefits based on a perception that mu= sic is not well-enough justified for its own sake? Or something like "I lov= e music therefore it would be good to show how good for us it is"? The tendency for poor design, unsubstantiated claims, and confirmation bias= in many existing published studies makes the first option less likely in m= y opinion. Discuss.... Professor Colette McKay Principal Scientist Leader, Translational Hearing Research Bionics Institute 384-388 Albert St East Melbourne Vic 3002 Office: +61 3 9667 7500 Direct line: +61 3 9667 7541 Mobile: 0408698202 Fax: +61 3 9667 7518 http://www.bionicsinstitute.org/our-staff/Pages/Prof-Colette-McKay.aspx<htt= ps://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.bionics= institute.org%2Four-staff%2FPages%2FProf-Colette-McKay.aspx&data=3D02%7C01%= 7Cerik.jansen%40HAN.NL%7Caf30836bd16542be997008d842914b05%7C5d73e7b7b3e14d0= 0b303056140b2a3b4%7C0%7C0%7C637332539081454043&sdata=3DMmfQn5wHVCztIU%2Bok9= wWBGMAB4MOo94jpp0Y5l0EGco%3D&reserved=3D0> Donate today to help us change lives This email is private and confidential to the intended recipient. If you ar= e not the intended recipient please do not copy it, circulate it or take an= y action in reliance on it. Kindly notify me that it has been misdirected a= nd then delete it. Thank you. ________________________________ From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception [AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx<= mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx>] on behalf of Ian Cross [ic108@xxxxxxxx<m= ailto:ic108@xxxxxxxx>] Sent: 17 August 2020 16:22 To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx<mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Papers on lack of effect of musical training I agree: music matters, and it matters ever more in times where those in po= wer have none of it. As Shakespeare put it " The man that hath no music in= himself, Nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds, Is fit for treason= s, stratagems, and spoils; The motions of his spirit are dull as night, And= his affections dark as Erebus" As far as definitions of music are concerned, I'd direct interested parties= to Tomas Turino's excellent book Music as Social Life (Turino, T. (2008). = Music as social life : the politics of participation. London: University of= Chicago Press), ideas he covered in brief in a later paper (Turino, T. (20= 09). Four Fields of Music Making and Sustainable Living. The World of Music= , 51(1), 95-117). As for my own ideas about music =97 they evolve, but I'd= suggest two papers that present ideas point in the direction of definition= s: Cross, I. (2012). Cognitive Science and the Cultural Nature of Music. Topic= s in Cognitive Science, 4(4), 668-677. Cross, I. (2014). Music and communication in music psychology. Psychology o= f Music, 42(6), 809-819. Ian Cross -- Professor Ian Cross Chair, Faculty Board of Music Director, Centre for Music & Science Faculty of Music University of Cambridge Cambridge CB3 9DP --_000_SN6PR05MB5231237F8417FF09A0AD0E04E35D0SN6PR05MB5231namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html> <head> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1= 252"> <style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none;"> P {margin-top:0;margin-bo= ttom:0;} </style> </head> <body dir=3D"ltr"> <div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size= : 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, Arial, He= lvetica, sans-serif; background-color: white"> Dear List,</div> <div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, Arial, He= lvetica, sans-serif; background-color: white"> <br> Following up on Robert Zatorre's insightful post mentioning genetics, some = of you may be interested in this list of 55 articles on genetic studies of = musicality, compiled by a student of mine (Damian Liu). It covers art= icles and chapters published through 2018:</div> <div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, Arial, He= lvetica, sans-serif; background-color: white"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, Arial, He= lvetica, sans-serif; background-color: white"> <span lang=3D"en-US" style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 14.67px; font-family:= Cambria, serif; background-color: white"><a href=3D"https://bit.ly/2xeUnow= " target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" data-auth=3D"NotApplicable"= style=3D"margin: 0px; background-color: white">https://bit.ly/2xeUnow</a><= /span><br> </div> <div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, Arial, He= lvetica, sans-serif; background-color: white"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, Arial, He= lvetica, sans-serif; background-color: white"> Damian put this together for a 2019 symposium on musicality and genomics;</= div> <div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, Arial, He= lvetica, sans-serif; background-color: white"> <a href=3D"http://www.mcg.uva.nl/musicality2019/index.html" target=3D"_blan= k" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" data-auth=3D"NotApplicable" style=3D"margin:= 0px">http://www.mcg.uva.nl/musicality2019/index.html</a><br> </div> <div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, Arial, He= lvetica, sans-serif; background-color: white"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, Arial, He= lvetica, sans-serif; background-color: white"> If you see articles or chapters that are missing (or newer than those on th= e list), feel free to comment on the Google sheet so we can add them. = </div> <div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, Arial, He= lvetica, sans-serif; background-color: white"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, Arial, He= lvetica, sans-serif; background-color: white"> Here is the one recent study I'm aware of:</div> <div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, Arial, He= lvetica, sans-serif; background-color: white"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, Arial, He= lvetica, sans-serif; background-color: white"> <span style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, sans-serif= ; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); text-align: left; background-color: white">Niarch= ou, M., Sathirapongsasuti, J. F., Jacoby, ... & Gordon, R.L. (2019). Un= ravelling the genetic architecture of musical rhythm.<span style=3D"margin: 0px"> </span></span><i style=3D= "color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; t= ext-align: left; background-color: white">BioRxiv</i><span style=3D"margin:= 0px; font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(34, 34, 3= 4); text-align: left; background-color: white">, 836197. </span><a href=3D"https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/836= 197v1.abstract" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" data-auth=3D"= NotApplicable" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;= font-size: 12pt;">https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/836197v1.abstrac= t</a></div> <div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, Arial, He= lvetica, sans-serif; background-color: white"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, Arial, He= lvetica, sans-serif; background-color: white"> Regards,</div> <div style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, Arial, He= lvetica, sans-serif; background-color: white"> Ani</div> <br> </div> <div id=3D"appendonsend"></div> <hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex=3D"-1"> <div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" st= yle=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> AUDITORY - Research i= n Auditory Perception <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> on behalf of R. Zato= rre, Dr. <robert.zatorre@xxxxxxxx><br> <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 18, 2020 10:07 AM<br> <b>To:</b> AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [AUDITORY] Papers on lack of effect of musical training= </font> <div> </div> </div> <style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none"> <!-- p {margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0} --> </style> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:14p= t; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Dear list</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:14p= t; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:14p= t; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> I am enjoying the intellectual debate, which of course, goes a bit off-topi= c at times, but that's fun too.</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:14p= t; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:14p= t; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Regarding "correlation is not causation," it is of course l= iterally correct. However, sometimes it is used as if it meant "Correl= ation cannot even imply causation under any circumstances. Ever." At w= hich point it shades into sophistry. (See for instance climate-change deniers who say that greenhouse gases are merely correlated with temperatu= re increases, and hence cannot be taken as causal agents.) So a little prag= matism in the interpretation can go a long way, as can a little humility on= the part of those making claims. </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:14p= t; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:14p= t; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Also, in neuroscience at least, the principle of plasticity is fundamentall= y recognized as central to the organization of the nervous system in relati= on to how it optimizes its interactions with the environment. So to believe= that it does not happen in the human brain seems odd. This is logically entirely distinct from whether co= gnitive transfer occurs or not, of course. Similarly, everything in biology= depends on genetics. So taking that factor into account is also essential.= </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:14p= t; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:14p= t; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> There are some nice papers from Fredrik Ull=E9n's lab in Stockholm that doc= ument both ends of the nature/nurture continuum. </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:14p= t; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> They emphasize the multifactorial nature of genetic and environmental facto= rs on lots of variables that contribute to music-related behaviors. In this= paper for instance, highly relevant to the current debate, they show that = differences in intelligence test scores that appear to be related to musical training are better explained = by shared genes and environment:</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:14p= t; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34); font-family:Arial,sans-serif; font-size= :13px; text-align:left; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); display:inline!i= mportant">Mosing, M. A., Madison, G., Pedersen, N. L., & Ull=E9n, F. (2= 016). Investigating cognitive transfer within the framework of music practice: Genetic pleiotropy rather than causality.= <span> </span></span><i style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34); font-family:Aria= l,sans-serif; font-size:13px; text-align:left; background-color:rgb(255,255= ,255)">Developmental Science</i><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34); font-fa= mily:Arial,sans-serif; font-size:13px; text-align:left; background-color:rg= b(255,255,255); display:inline!important">,<span> </span></span><i sty= le=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34); font-family:Arial,sans-serif; font-size:13px; te= xt-align:left; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">19</i><span style=3D"colo= r:rgb(34,34,34); font-family:Arial,sans-serif; font-size:13px; text-align:l= eft; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); display:inline!important">(3), 504-512.</span><br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:14p= t; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Conversely, in this paper they show that musical training has distinct infl= uences on brain structure even in monozygotic twins who have different musi= cal training:</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:14p= t; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34); font-family:Arial,sans-serif; font-size= :13px; text-align:left; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); display:inline!i= mportant">de Manzano, =D6., & Ull=E9n, F. (2018). Same genes, different= brains: neuroanatomical differences between monozygotic twins discordant for musical training.<span> </span></spa= n><i style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34); font-family:Arial,sans-serif; font-size:= 13px; text-align:left; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Cerebral Cortex</= i><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34); font-family:Arial,sans-serif; font-si= ze:13px; text-align:left; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); display:inline= !important">,<span> </span></span><i style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34); fon= t-family:Arial,sans-serif; font-size:13px; text-align:left; background-colo= r:rgb(255,255,255)">28</i><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34); font-family:A= rial,sans-serif; font-size:13px; text-align:left; background-color:rgb(255,= 255,255); display:inline!important">(1), 387-394.</span><br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:14p= t; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> So genes have a huge influence, but environmental variables, including musi= cal training, also must be taken into account.</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:14p= t; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:14p= t; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Finally, as a further contribution to rampant self-promotion, I wrote a lit= tle commentary about these issues in relation to music and language learnin= g, which some of you may find useful (or may wish to bash, depending on you= r proclivities):</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:14p= t; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34); font-family:Arial,sans-serif; font-size= :13px; text-align:left; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); display:inline!i= mportant">Zatorre, R. J. (2013). Predispositions and plasticity in music an= d speech learning: neural correlates and implications.<span> </span></span><i style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)= ; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; font-size:13px; text-align:left; background= -color:rgb(255,255,255)">Science</i><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34); fon= t-family:Arial,sans-serif; font-size:13px; text-align:left; background-colo= r:rgb(255,255,255); display:inline!important">,<span> </span></span><i= style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34); font-family:Arial,sans-serif; font-size:13px= ; text-align:left; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">342</i><span style=3D= "color:rgb(34,34,34); font-family:Arial,sans-serif; font-size:13px; text-al= ign:left; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); display:inline!important">(615= 8), 585-589.</span><br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:14p= t; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:14p= t; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Let's hope we can all head back to our labs soon so we can keep chipping aw= ay at these fascinating questions!</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:14p= t; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:14p= t; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Robert</div> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:14p= t; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div> <div id=3D"x_Signature"> <div> <div class=3D"x_BodyFragment"><font size=3D"2"> <div class=3D"x_PlainText">Robert Zatorre<br> Montreal Neurological Institute<br> McGill University<br> 514-398-8903<br> fax: 514-398-1338<br> www.zlab.mcgill.ca</div> </font></div> </div> </div> </div> <div id=3D"x_appendonsend"></div> <hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%"> <div id=3D"x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" = color=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> AUDITORY - Research= in Auditory Perception <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> on behalf of Janse= n Erik <Erik.Jansen@xxxxxxxx><br> <b>Sent:</b> August 17, 2020 6:04 AM<br> <b>To:</b> AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Papers on lack of effect of musical training</font> <div> </div> </div> <style> <!-- @xxxxxxxx {font-family:"Cambria Math"} @xxxxxxxx {font-family:Calibri} @xxxxxxxx {font-family:Verdana} @xxxxxxxx {font-family:Consolas} @xxxxxxxx {font-family:Tahoma} p.x_x_MsoNormal, li.x_x_MsoNormal, div.x_x_MsoNormal {margin:0cm; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif} a:link, span.x_x_MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline} pre {margin:0cm; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"} span.x_x_HTMLPreformattedChar {font-family:Consolas} span.x_x_EmailStyle22 {font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:windowtext} .x_x_MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt} @xxxxxxxx WordSection1 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt} --> </style> <div lang=3D"en-NL"> <div class=3D"x_x_WordSection1"> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; = font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Hi all</span></p> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; = font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; = font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I agree with Ian. This also con= nects to the debates regarding the value of music, or of art in general. If= someone wants to show that music is good for something then this refers to an instrumental conception of music: it yields somethi= ng of value that is external to the music. However, we can also view music = as having intrinsic value: it is a valuable expression of humankind, of wha= t it means to be a human being. Apart from these instrumental and autonomous conceptions, one can further = argue that the social and psychological processes that result from musical = activity produce meaningful interactions and are therefore valuable to huma= n life (i.e. socio-epistemic value).</span></p> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; = font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Thus, in my opinion, the resear= cher=92s motivation may lie with the substantiation of either or all of the= se claims to value.</span></p> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; = font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">And frankly, ever since the Moz= art effect I think psychology has been way too focused on a mere instrument= al view of music, the arts and also creativity. As such, I think also researchers sometimes implicitly and uncritically fo= llow such neoliberal and instrumental rationales in studying music.</span><= /p> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; = font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; = font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Just my 2 cts..</span></p> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; = font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; = font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Erik</span></p> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&qu= ot;Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p> <div> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt; f= ont-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:gray">Erik Jansen PhD</spa= n><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt; font-family:"Verdana&= quot;,sans-serif; color:red">|</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-siz= e:7.5pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:gray"> Asso= ciate Professor Capabilities in Care and Wellbeing </span><span lang= =3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-s= erif; color:red">|</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt; fon= t-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:gray"> Research Center&= nbsp;for Social Support and Community Care </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style= =3D"font-size:7.5pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:red"= >|</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt; font-family:"V= erdana",sans-serif; color:gray"> HAN University of Applied Scienc= es</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"= Calibri",sans-serif"></span></p> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt; f= ont-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:gray">Visiting address: Ro= om A3.<a href=3D"https://maps.google.com/?q=3D13b,+Kapittelweg&entry=3D= gmail&source=3Dg"><span style=3D"color:#0563C1">13b, Kapittelweg</span>= </a> 33, Nijmegen </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt; fo= nt-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:red">|</span><span lang=3D"= EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif= ; color:gray"> Postal address: PO Box 6960, 6503 GL Nijmegen = ;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt; font-family:"Ve= rdana",sans-serif; color:red">|</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fo= nt-size:7.5pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:gray">&nbs= p;T +31 (0)24 353 03 68 </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.= 5pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:red">|</span><span l= ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt; font-family:"Verdana",san= s-serif; color:gray"> E <a href=3D"mailto:erik.jansen@xxxxxxxx" target= =3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#0563C1">erik.jansen@xxxxxxxx</span></a>&nbs= p;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"= Calibri",sans-serif"></span></p> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt; f= ont-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:gray"><a href=3D"http://ww= w.han.nl/" target=3D"_blank" title=3D"http://www.han.nl/"><span style=3D"co= lor:#0563C1">www.han.nl</span></a> </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt; font-family:"Ver= dana",sans-serif; color:red">| </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt; font-family:"Ver= dana",sans-serif; color:gray"><a href=3D"http://www.werkplaatssociaald= omeinnijmegen.nl/" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#0563C1">www.werk= plaatssociaaldomeinnijmegen.nl</span></a> </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"= style=3D"font-size:7.5pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; colo= r:red">|</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt; font-family:&= quot;Verdana",sans-serif; color:gray"> In office : Tuesday =96 Friday </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size= :7.5pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:red">| </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt; font-family:"Ver= dana",sans-serif; color:gray">Secretary </span><span lang=3D"EN-U= S" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; co= lor:red">|</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt; font-family= :"Verdana",sans-serif; color:gray"> T +31 (0)24 353 03 69 (Helmie Kayser)</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"= style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"></s= pan></p> </div> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&qu= ot;Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&qu= ot;Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p> <div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0c= m 0cm 0cm"> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">From: </span></b>= <span style=3D"color:black">AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception <= AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> on behalf of Ian Cross <ic108@xxxxxxxx>= <br> <b>Reply to: </b>Ian Cross <ic108@xxxxxxxx><br> <b>Date: </b>Monday, 17 August 2020 at 11:38<br> <b>To: </b>"AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx" <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= A><br> <b>Subject: </b>Re: Papers on lack of effect of musical training</span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"> </span></= p> </div> <p>They might also be motivated by the need to produce arguments to substan= tiate a value for music in education in the face of neoliberal indifference= and ineptitude=85</p> <div> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal">On 17/08/2020 09:27, Colette McKAY wrote:</p> </div> <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <div> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&qu= ot;Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black">I agree with everyone about the im= portance of music to humankind. From this point of view it would be an inte= resting research study to look at the psychological motivations of <u>researchers </u>who run studies to "show" the = benefits gained by music training for non-music domains of cognition etc. A= re they generally just interested in the scientific study of far transfer o= f learning effects, with music as an example? Or are they motivated by a need to "prove" music education has n= on-music benefits based on a perception that music is not well-enough justi= fied for its own sake? Or something like "I love music therefore it wo= uld be good to show how good for us it is"? </span></p> <div> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&qu= ot;Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&qu= ot;Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black">The tendency for poor design, unsu= bstantiated claims, and confirmation bias in many existing published studie= s makes the first option less likely in my opinion.</span></p> <div> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&qu= ot;Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&qu= ot;Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black">Discuss....</span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&qu= ot;Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p> </div> </div> <div> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&qu= ot;Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p> <div> <div> <div> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&qu= ot;Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black">Professor Colette McKay<br> Principal Scientist</span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&qu= ot;Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black">Leader, Translational Hearing Rese= arch<br> Bionics Institute<br> 384-388 Albert St<br> East Melbourne Vic 3002<br> Office: +61 3 9667 7500<br> Direct line: +61 3 9667 7541<br> Mobile: 0408698202<br> Fax: +61 3 9667 7518<br> <a href=3D"https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F= %2Fwww.bionicsinstitute.org%2Four-staff%2FPages%2FProf-Colette-McKay.aspx&a= mp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cerik.jansen%40HAN.NL%7Caf30836bd16542be997008d842914b05= %7C5d73e7b7b3e14d00b303056140b2a3b4%7C0%7C0%7C637332539081454043&sdata= =3DMmfQn5wHVCztIU%2Bok9wWBGMAB4MOo94jpp0Y5l0EGco%3D&reserved=3D0" targe= t=3D"_blank">http://www.bionicsinstitute.org/our-staff/Pages/Prof-Colette-M= cKay.aspx</a><br> Donate today to help us change lives<br> <br> This email is private and confidential to the intended recipient. If you ar= e not the intended recipient please do not copy it, circulate it or take an= y action in reliance on it. Kindly notify me that it has been misdirected a= nd then delete it. Thank you.</span></p> </div> </div> </div> </div> <div> <div class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><= span style=3D"font-family:"Times New Roman",serif; color:black"> <hr size=3D"0" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center"> </span></div> <div id=3D"x_x_divRpF170428"> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D= "font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black">= From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma&q= uot;,sans-serif; color:black"> AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception [<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= ILL.CA</a>] on behalf of Ian Cross [<a href=3D"mailto:ic108@xxxxxxxx">ic10= 8@xxxxxxxx</a>]<br> <b>Sent:</b> 17 August 2020 16:22<br> <b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= L.CA</a><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [AUDITORY] Papers on lack of effect of musical training= </span><span style=3D"font-family:"Times New Roman",serif; color:= black"></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:"Time= s New Roman",serif; color:black">I agree: music matters, and it matter= s ever more in times where those in power have none of it. As Shakesp= eare put it " The man that hath no music in himself, Nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds, Is fit for treasons, strata= gems, and spoils; The motions of his spirit are dull as night, And his affe= ctions dark as Erebus"</span></p> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:"Time= s New Roman",serif; color:black"> </span></p> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:"Time= s New Roman",serif; color:black">As far as definitions of music are co= ncerned, I'd direct interested parties to Tomas Turino's excellent book Mus= ic as Social Life (Turino, T. (2008). <i>Music as social life : the politics of participation</i>. London: Univer= sity of Chicago Press), ideas he covered in brief in a later paper (Turino,= T. (2009). Four Fields of Music Making and Sustainable Living. <i>The World of Music, 51</i>(1), 95-117). As for my own ideas about = music =97 they evolve, but I'd suggest two papers that present ideas point = in the direction of definitions:</span></p> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:"Time= s New Roman",serif; color:black">Cross, I. (2012). Cognitive Science a= nd the Cultural Nature of Music. <i>Topics in Cognitive Science, 4</i>(4), 668-677.</span></p> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:"Time= s New Roman",serif; color:black">Cross, I. (2014). Music and communica= tion in music psychology. <i>Psychology of Music, 42</i>(6), 809-819.</span></p> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:"Time= s New Roman",serif; color:black"> </span></p> <p class=3D"x_x_MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:"Time= s New Roman",serif; color:black">Ian Cross</span></p> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> <pre>-- </pre> <pre>Professor Ian Cross</pre> <pre>Chair, Faculty Board of Music</pre> <pre>Director, Centre for Music & Science</pre> <pre>Faculty of Music</pre> <pre>University of Cambridge</pre> <pre>Cambridge CB3 9DP</pre> </div> </div> </div> </body> </html> --_000_SN6PR05MB5231237F8417FF09A0AD0E04E35D0SN6PR05MB5231namp_--