Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] [widmann@xxxxxxxx: Re: [AUDITORY] Origin of the 'Bregman picture'?] From: Andrea Valle <andrea.valle@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 15:12:48 +0100 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>--Apple-Mail=_092FF1C5-C48A-4AC3-B7EC-541BF20552AB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 It is discussed (without figures) in Auditory Scene Analysis, p. 5, = chap, 1, as a way to describe epistemologically the difference between = vision and hearing Best -a- -------------------------------------------------- Andrea Valle -------------------------------------------------- CIRMA - StudiUm Universit=C3=A0 degli Studi di Torino --> http://www.cirma.unito.it/andrea/ --> http://www.fonurgia.unito.it/andrea/ --> http://www.flickr.com/photos/vanderaalle/sets/ --> http://vimeo.com/vanderaalle --> http://andreavalle.bandcamp.com --> andrea.valle@xxxxxxxx -------------------------------------------------- "This is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, a lotta ins, a lotta = outs, a lotta what-have-yous."=20 (Jeffrey 'The Dude' Lebowski) > On 23 Feb 2019, at 07:02, Pierre Divenyi <pdivenyi@xxxxxxxx> = wrote: >=20 > A wonderful analogy, indeed! I must have heard it from Al but, given = more my age than my social status, I forgot it. Thank you Robert for the = thorough description. >=20 > Best, > Pierre >=20 > On 2/22/19 5:29 PM, R. Zatorre, Dr. wrote: >> Dear Peter (and list) Although I actually never saw this drawing = before, I heard Al talk about the idea many times (I don't recall ever = seeing him use the sketch either, it was just a verbal description). His = idea was simple but clever: The observer on the beach is supposed to = look at the movement of the things floating in the water of the two = channels carved into the sand, and from that alone, deduce the objects = that are in the ocean, their distance, motion, direction, and so forth. = "You are no doubt thinking 'Why that's impossible!' " Al would say, and = the audience would nod their agreement; then he would go on to point out = that this is the computational problem the auditory system has to solve = all the time: the movement up and down of the water in the channels = represents the changes in air pressure arriving at the two ears; from = this alone, the auditory system must figure out the presence of sources = out in the environment along with their motion etc, while of course = ignoring background noise (the analogue of which would be wind causing = ripples in the ocean). >>=20 >> It's a fun adjunct for an undergrad class on perception I think. >>=20 >> best wishes >>=20 >> Robert=20 >>=20 >> Robert Zatorre >> Montreal Neurological Institute >> McGill University >> 514-398-8903 >> fax: 514-398-1338 >> www.zlab.mcgill.ca <http://www.zlab.mcgill.ca/> >>=20 >> From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception = <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> <mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> on behalf = of Peter P.<peterparker@xxxxxxxx> <mailto:peterparker@xxxxxxxx> >> Sent: February 21, 2019 8:32 AM >> To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> >> Subject: [widmann@xxxxxxxx <mailto:widmann@xxxxxxxx>: Re: = [AUDITORY] Origin of the 'Bregman picture'?] >> =20 >> Forgive me, but what is this picture about? I am curious but don't = have >> Goldstein's book at hand. >>=20 >> Thanks! >> Peter >>=20 >> ----- Forwarded message from Andreas Widmann <widmann@xxxxxxxx> = <mailto:widmann@xxxxxxxx> ----- >>=20 >> From: Andreas Widmann <widmann@xxxxxxxx> = <mailto:widmann@xxxxxxxx> >> Reply-To: Andreas Widmann <widmann@xxxxxxxx> = <mailto:widmann@xxxxxxxx> >> To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> >> Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Origin of the 'Bregman picture'? >> Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 11:57:25 +0100 >> Sender: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception = <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> <mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> >>=20 >> > was also pointed to Goldstein=E2=80=99s =E2=80=98Sensation and = perception=E2=80=99 where I couldn't find it neither. >> It appears in the German version of Goldstein, 4th edition, 1997, = Spektrum. Page 352, Figure 9.1. There are no image credits for the = figure. >>=20 >> Best, >> Andreas >>=20 >> > Am 19.02.2019 um 12:35 schrieb Brinkmann, Fabian = <fabian.brinkmann@xxxxxxxx> <mailto:fabian.brinkmann@xxxxxxxx>: >> >=20 >> > Dear List, >> >=20 >> > does anyone know the origin of the attached picture? It is usually = referenced to Albert Bregman=E2=80=99s work on auditory scene analysis, = however, I fail to find it in his book. I was also pointed to = Goldstein=E2=80=99s =E2=80=98Sensation and perception=E2=80=99 where I = couldn't find it neither. >> >=20 >> > Best >> > Fabian >> >=20 >> > <Bregman_ASA.jpg> >>=20 >> ----- End forwarded message ----- >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_092FF1C5-C48A-4AC3-B7EC-541BF20552AB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html = charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" = class=3D"">It is discussed (without figures) in Auditory Scene Analysis, = p. 5, chap, 1, as a way to describe epistemologically the difference = between vision and hearing<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = class=3D"">Best</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = class=3D"">-a-</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br = class=3D""><div class=3D""> <div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: = start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; = word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: = break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: = after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" = class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; = font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; = font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; = text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; = word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: = 0px;">--------------------------------------------------<br = class=3D"">Andrea Valle<br = class=3D"">--------------------------------------------------<br = class=3D"">CIRMA - StudiUm<br class=3D"">Universit=C3=A0 degli Studi di = Torino<br class=3D"">--> <a href=3D"http://www.cirma.unito.it/andrea/" = class=3D"">http://www.cirma.unito.it/andrea/</a><br class=3D"">--> <a = href=3D"http://www.fonurgia.unito.it/andrea/" = class=3D"">http://www.fonurgia.unito.it/andrea/</a><br = class=3D"">--> <a = href=3D"http://www.flickr.com/photos/vanderaalle/sets/" = class=3D"">http://www.flickr.com/photos/vanderaalle/sets/</a><br = class=3D"">--> <a href=3D"http://vimeo.com/vanderaalle" = class=3D"">http://vimeo.com/vanderaalle</a><br class=3D"">--> <a = href=3D"http://andreavalle.bandcamp.com" = class=3D"">http://andreavalle.bandcamp.com</a><br class=3D"">--> <a = href=3D"mailto:andrea.valle@xxxxxxxx" = class=3D"">andrea.valle@xxxxxxxx</a><br = class=3D"">--------------------------------------------------<br = class=3D""><br class=3D"">"This is a very complicated case, = Maude. You know, a lotta ins, a lotta outs, a = lotta what-have-yous." <br class=3D"">(Jeffrey 'The Dude' = Lebowski)</div></div></div> </div> <br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div = class=3D"">On 23 Feb 2019, at 07:02, Pierre Divenyi <<a = href=3D"mailto:pdivenyi@xxxxxxxx" = class=3D"">pdivenyi@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:</div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Calibri"= style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: = normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; = text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; = word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: = rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">A wonderful analogy, indeed! I must have = heard it from Al but, given more my age than my social status, I forgot = it. Thank you Robert for the thorough description.<br class=3D""><br = class=3D"">Best,<br class=3D"">Pierre<br class=3D""></font><br = style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; = font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; = text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: = normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; = background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><div = class=3D"moz-cite-prefix" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: = 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; = text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, = 255);">On 2/22/19 5:29 PM, R. Zatorre, Dr. wrote:<br = class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" = cite=3D"mid:16312_1550898590_5C70D59E_16312_26_1_YQXPR0101MB1352850D0293E9= F04304D5F581780@xxxxxxxx" = style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; = font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; = orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: = none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; = background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><div = id=3D"divtagdefaultwrapper" dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-size: 14pt; = font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><div = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">Dear Peter = (and list) Although I actually never saw this drawing before, I = heard Al talk about the idea many times (I don't recall ever seeing = him use the sketch either, it was just a verbal description). His idea = was simple but clever: The observer on the beach is supposed to look at = the movement of the things floating in the water of the two channels = carved into the sand, and from that alone, deduce the objects that are = in the ocean, their distance, motion, direction, and so forth. "You are = no doubt thinking 'Why that's impossible!' " Al would say, and the = audience would nod their agreement; then he would go on to point out = that this is the computational problem the auditory system has to solve = all the time: the movement up and down of the water in the channels = represents the changes in air pressure arriving at the two ears; from = this alone, the auditory system must figure out the presence of sources = out in the environment along with their motion etc, while of course = ignoring background noise (the analogue of which would be wind causing = ripples in the ocean).</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">It's a fun = adjunct for an undergrad class on perception I think.</div><div = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D""><br = class=3D""></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" = class=3D"">best wishes</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" = class=3D"">Robert </div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; = margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div id=3D"Signature"= class=3D""><div class=3D"BodyFragment"><font size=3D"2" class=3D""><div = class=3D"PlainText">Robert Zatorre<br class=3D"">Montreal Neurological = Institute<br class=3D"">McGill University<br class=3D"">514-398-8903<br = class=3D"">fax: 514-398-1338<br class=3D""><a = class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" = href=3D"http://www.zlab.mcgill.ca/">www.zlab.mcgill.ca</a></div></font></d= iv></div><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><div style=3D"" class=3D""><hr = tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display: inline-block; width: 785.953125px;" = class=3D""><div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><font = face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><b = class=3D"">From:</b><span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>AUDITORY - Research in = Auditory Perception<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a = class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" = href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx"><AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx><= /a><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>on behalf of Peter = P.<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" = href=3D"mailto:peterparker@xxxxxxxx"><peterparker@xxxxxxxx><= /a><br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>February 21, 2019 8:32 = AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a = class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" = href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a><br = class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a = class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" = href=3D"mailto:widmann@xxxxxxxx">widmann@xxxxxxxx</a>: Re: = [AUDITORY] Origin of the 'Bregman picture'?]</font><div = class=3D""> </div></div><div class=3D"BodyFragment"><font size=3D"2" = class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><div = class=3D"PlainText">Forgive me, but what is this picture about? I am = curious but don't have<br class=3D"">Goldstein's book at hand.<br = class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thanks!<br class=3D"">Peter<br class=3D""><br = class=3D"">----- Forwarded message from Andreas Widmann<span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a = class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" = href=3D"mailto:widmann@xxxxxxxx"><widmann@xxxxxxxx></a><= span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>-----<br class=3D""><br = class=3D"">From: Andreas Widmann<span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a = class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" = href=3D"mailto:widmann@xxxxxxxx"><widmann@xxxxxxxx></a><= br class=3D"">Reply-To: Andreas Widmann<span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a = class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" = href=3D"mailto:widmann@xxxxxxxx"><widmann@xxxxxxxx></a><= br class=3D"">To:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a = class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" = href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a><br = class=3D"">Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Origin of the 'Bregman picture'?<br = class=3D"">Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 11:57:25 +0100<br class=3D"">Sender: = AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception<span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a = class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" = href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx"><AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx><= /a><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">> was also pointed to = Goldstein=E2=80=99s =E2=80=98Sensation and perception=E2=80=99 where I = couldn't find it neither.<br class=3D"">It appears in the German version = of Goldstein, 4th edition, 1997, Spektrum. Page 352, Figure 9.1. There = are no image credits for the figure.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Best,<br= class=3D"">Andreas<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">> Am 19.02.2019 um = 12:35 schrieb Brinkmann, Fabian<span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a = class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" = href=3D"mailto:fabian.brinkmann@xxxxxxxx"><fabian.brinkmann@xxxxxxxx= IN.DE></a>:<br class=3D"">><span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=3D"">> Dear = List,<br class=3D"">><span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=3D"">> does = anyone know the origin of the attached picture? It is usually referenced = to Albert Bregman=E2=80=99s work on auditory scene analysis, however, I = fail to find it in his book. I was also pointed to Goldstein=E2=80=99s = =E2=80=98Sensation and perception=E2=80=99 where I couldn't find it = neither.<br class=3D"">><span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=3D"">> Best<br = class=3D"">> Fabian<br class=3D"">><span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=3D"">> = <Bregman_ASA.jpg><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">----- End forwarded = message -----<br = class=3D""></div></span></font></div></div></div></blockquote><br = style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; = font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; = text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: = normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; = background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div></blockquote></div><br = class=3D""></div></div></div></body></html>= --Apple-Mail=_092FF1C5-C48A-4AC3-B7EC-541BF20552AB--