Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] [widmann@xxxxxxxx: Re: [AUDITORY] Origin of the 'Bregman picture'?] From: Pierre Divenyi <pdivenyi@xxxxxxxx> Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 22:02:11 -0800 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------43511B3CAB35598B7E33FA4D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by edgeum2.it.mcgill.ca id x1N62KH0020892 A wonderful analogy, indeed! I must have heard it from Al but, given=20 more my age than my social status, I forgot it. Thank you Robert for the=20 thorough description. Best, Pierre On 2/22/19 5:29 PM, R. Zatorre, Dr. wrote: > > Dear Peter (and list)=A0Although I actually never saw this drawing=20 > before, I heard Al talk about the idea=A0many times (I don't recall eve= r=20 > seeing him use the sketch either, it was just a verbal description).=20 > His idea was simple but clever: The observer on the beach is supposed=20 > to look at the movement of the things floating in the water of the two=20 > channels carved into the sand, and from that alone, deduce the objects=20 > that are in the ocean, their distance, motion, direction, and so=20 > forth. "You are no doubt thinking 'Why that's impossible!'=A0" Al would= =20 > say, and the audience would nod their agreement; then he would go on=20 > to point out that this is the computational problem the auditory=20 > system has to solve all the time: the movement up and down of the=20 > water in the channels represents the changes in air pressure arriving=20 > at the two ears; from this alone, the auditory system must figure out=20 > the presence of sources out in the environment along with their motion=20 > etc, while of course ignoring background noise (the analogue of which=20 > would be wind causing ripples in the ocean). > > > It's a fun adjunct for an undergrad class on perception I think. > > > best wishes > > > Robert > > > Robert Zatorre > Montreal Neurological Institute > McGill University > 514-398-8903 > fax: 514-398-1338 > www.zlab.mcgill.ca > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= - > *From:* AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception=20 > <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> on behalf of Peter P.=20 > <peterparker@xxxxxxxx> > *Sent:* February 21, 2019 8:32 AM > *To:* AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx > *Subject:* [widmann@xxxxxxxx: Re: [AUDITORY] Origin of the=20 > 'Bregman picture'?] > Forgive me, but what is this picture about? I am curious but don't have > Goldstein's book at hand. > > Thanks! > Peter > > ----- Forwarded message from Andreas Widmann <widmann@xxxxxxxx>=20 > ----- > > From: Andreas Widmann <widmann@xxxxxxxx> > Reply-To: Andreas Widmann <widmann@xxxxxxxx> > To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx > Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Origin of the 'Bregman picture'? > Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 11:57:25 +0100 > Sender: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception=20 > <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> > > >=A0 was also pointed to Goldstein=92s =91Sensation and perception=92 w= here I=20 > couldn't find it neither. > It appears in the German version of Goldstein, 4th edition, 1997,=20 > Spektrum. Page 352, Figure 9.1. There are no image credits for the figu= re. > > Best, > Andreas > > > Am 19.02.2019 um 12:35 schrieb Brinkmann, Fabian=20 > <fabian.brinkmann@xxxxxxxx>: > > > > Dear List, > > > > does anyone know the origin of the attached picture? It is usually=20 > referenced to Albert Bregman=92s work on auditory scene analysis,=20 > however, I fail to find it in his book. I was also pointed to=20 > Goldstein=92s =91Sensation and perception=92 where I couldn't find it n= either. > > > > Best > > Fabian > > > > <Bregman_ASA.jpg> > > ----- End forwarded message ----- --------------43511B3CAB35598B7E33FA4D Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by edgeum2.it.mcgill.ca id x1N62KH0020892 <html> <head> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252"> </head> <body text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"> <font face=3D"Calibri">A wonderful analogy, indeed! I must have heard it from Al but, given more my age than my social status, I forgot it. Thank you Robert for the thorough description.<br> <br> Best,<br> Pierre<br> </font><br> <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 2/22/19 5:29 PM, R. Zatorre, Dr. wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:16312_1550898590_5C70D59E_16312_26_1_YQXPR0101MB1352850D0293E= 9F04304D5F581780@xxxxxxxx"> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252"> <style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none;"><!-- P {margin-top= :0;margin-bottom:0;} --></style> <div id=3D"divtagdefaultwrapper" style=3D"font-size:14pt;color:#000000;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-= serif;" dir=3D"ltr"> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">Dear Peter (and list)=A0Although I actually never saw this drawing before, I heard Al talk about the idea=A0many times (I don't recall ever seeing him use the sketch either, it was just a verbal description). His idea was simple but clever: The observer on the beach is supposed to look at the movement of the things floating in the water of the two channels carved into the sand, and from that alone, deduce the objects that are in the ocean, their distance, motion, direction, and so forth. "You are no doubt thinking 'Why that's impossible!'=A0" Al would say= , and the audience would nod their agreement; then he would go on to point out that this is the computational problem the auditory system has to solve all the time: the movement up and down of the water in the channels represents the changes in air pressure arriving at the two ears; from this alone, the auditory system must figure out the presence of sources out in the environment along with their motion etc, while of course ignoring background noise (the analogue of which would be wind causing ripples in the ocean).</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br> </p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">It's a fun adjunct for an undergrad class on perception I think.</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br> </p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">best wishes</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br> </p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">Robert=A0</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br> </p> <div id=3D"Signature"> <div class=3D"BodyFragment"><font size=3D"2"> <div class=3D"PlainText">Robert Zatorre<br> Montreal Neurological Institute<br> McGill University<br> 514-398-8903<br> fax: 514-398-1338<br> <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"http://www.= zlab.mcgill.ca">www.zlab.mcgill.ca</a></div> </font></div> </div> <br> <br> <div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex=3D"-1"> <div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:= 11pt" face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= LISTS.MCGILL.CA"><AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx></a> on behalf of Peter = P. <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:peterpark= er@xxxxxxxx"><peterparker@xxxxxxxx></a><br> <b>Sent:</b> February 21, 2019 8:32 AM<br> <b>To:</b> <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"ma= ilto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a><br> <b>Subject:</b> [<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href= =3D"mailto:widmann@xxxxxxxx">widmann@xxxxxxxx</a>: Re: [AUDIT= ORY] Origin of the 'Bregman picture'?]</font> <div>=A0</div> </div> <div class=3D"BodyFragment"><font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;"> <div class=3D"PlainText">Forgive me, but what is this picture about? I am curious but don't have<br> Goldstein's book at hand.<br> <br> Thanks!<br> Peter<br> <br> ----- Forwarded message from Andreas Widmann <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:widma= nn@xxxxxxxx"><widmann@xxxxxxxx></a> -----<br> <br> From: Andreas Widmann <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E= " href=3D"mailto:widmann@xxxxxxxx"><widmann@xxxxxxxx></= a><br> Reply-To: Andreas Widmann <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:widma= nn@xxxxxxxx"><widmann@xxxxxxxx></a><br> To: <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailt= o:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a><br> Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Origin of the 'Bregman picture'?<br> Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 11:57:25 +0100<br> Sender: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:AUDIT= ORY@xxxxxxxx"><AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx></a><br> <br> >=A0 was also pointed to Goldstein=92s =91Sensation = and perception=92 where I couldn't find it neither.<br> It appears in the German version of Goldstein, 4th edition, 1997, Spektrum. Page 352, Figure 9.1. There are no image credits for the figure.<br> <br> Best,<br> Andreas<br> <br> > Am 19.02.2019 um 12:35 schrieb Brinkmann, Fabian <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:fabia= n.brinkmann@xxxxxxxx"><fabian.brinkmann@xxxxxxxx></a>:<br> > <br> > Dear List,<br> > <br> > does anyone know the origin of the attached picture? It is usually referenced to Albert Bregman=92s work on auditory scene analysis, however, I fail to find it in his book. I was also pointed to Goldstein=92= s =91Sensation and perception=92 where I couldn't find it neither.<br> > <br> > Best<br> > Fabian<br> > <br> > <Bregman_ASA.jpg><br> <br> ----- End forwarded message -----<br> </div> </span></font></div> </div> </div> </blockquote> <br> </body> </html> --------------43511B3CAB35598B7E33FA4D--