Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] melodic movies - pitch analysis From: Stefanie Stadler Elmer <stefanie.stadlerelmer@xxxxxxxx> Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 14:19:29 +0200 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C14BDBCB46334706A12F7A23 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by edgeum1.it.mcgill.ca id v4PCJXH2031869 Dear Adrian - dear list members thanks for your comment! - Carl Seashore (1938) published graphical=20 pictures of sung melodies by professional singers. I always wondered how=20 this was achieved. But Seashore did not give the slightest reference! Your comment and hint to EGG (electroglottography) being the most=20 accurate reference for measuring vocal pitch is very interesting! Is it=20 possible that Seashore and others used EGG to produce those pictures of=20 sung melodies? It is amazing that even nowadays, with all our knowledge and technology,=20 the analysis of pitch is still a difficult enterprise, when it comes=20 about the analysis of big data, e.g., large amounts of sung melodies or=20 songs. In this context, I often see information on pitch reduced to=20 unreliable and useless "data" by inacceptable, quick-and-dirty=20 procedures ... Could you please tell the advantages of the non-invasive EGG? Could this=20 be a method to cope with big data? And maybe even solve the problem with=20 the interferences in acoustic signals due to polyphonic music making? Thanks and best wishes, Stefanie Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. Stefanie Stadler Elmer - University of Z=C3=BCrich=20 http://www.psychologie.uzh.ch/institut/angehoerige/dozierende/stadler.htm= l - Schwyz University of Teacher Education, www.phsz.ch Am 06.05.17 um 16:14 schrieb Adrian Fourcin: > Dear Stefanie, > Yes, the book by Wolfgang Hess is still a mine of information and his=20 > recommendation that the EGG signal provides the most accurate=20 > reference for voice "pitch" measurements still holds -- because the=20 > percept of voice pitch is primarily dependent on the acoustic=20 > excitation of the vocal tract that is derived from vocal fold contact. > > Best wishes, > Adrian > > On 1 May 2017, at 14:24, Stefanie Stadler Elmer=20 > <stefanie.stadlerelmer@xxxxxxxx <mailto:stefanie.stadlerelmer@xxxxxxxx>>=20 > wrote: > > Dear list members > > Ani, thanks for sharing this fascinating website with Indian Ragas on=20 > Febr. 28 2017, where the singing is analyzed and visualized in real tim= e! > > It is very nicely done, indeed. Yet, different from you, Jim, I do not=20 > think that these analyses are "error free", since they use praat to=20 > calculate pitch out of the signal. This is one way to do it, yet,=20 > there are other possibilities, see e.g., > > Hess, W. (1983). Pitch determination of speech signals: Algorithms and=20 > devices. New York: Springer. > > Praat is a fantastic and powerful tool! It is optimized for speech=20 > sounds, and pitch analysis is done with one single algorithm!=20 > Depending on the signal, there could be more suitable ones. > > My impression is that some people are not aware that pitch is not very=20 > well defined. Various algorithms may yield various results. Any=20 > calculation and visualization of pitch in a signal is an approximation=20 > by the use of a specific algorithm. > > In our research on children's singing, we analyze pitch at the basis=20 > of a program that offers two different algorithms, both selected for=20 > the typical sound quality of singing of and for children, e.g.,=20 > without vibrato. This program and related instructions are available=20 > here for free: > > http://mmatools.sourceforge.net/ > > Have fun and enjoy! > Stefanie Stadler Elmer > > --=20 > > Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. Stefanie Stadler Elmer > > - University of Z=C3=BCrich > > http://www.psychologie.uzh.ch/institut/angehoerige/dozierende/stadler.h= tml=20 > > > - Schwyz University of Teacher Education, www.phsz.ch > > +41 41 859 05 75 > > Am 01.03.17 um 17:09 schrieb James W. Beauchamp: >> Dear Ani, >> >> Thanks for informing the Auditory list about the Music in Motion >> web site! >> >> It's nice to see (and hear) these results. They seem to be error free. >> I'm assuming that the drone accompaniment is on a different track; >> otherwise it would interfere with the voice pitch trace. Looking the >> site's Introduction pull-down, it appears that the program is using >> the Praat algorithm for pitch detection. I would think that the same >> program would work for western singing except that the vertical scale >> should ideally correspond to standard equal-tempered (ET) notes. >> >> The software that I've been developing over many years, SNDAN, >> includes a program, that uses the Two-Way-Mismatch method (written by >> Robert C. Maher*), that makes pitch-vs.-time plots with the ET scale, >> but it's not error free and it's not real time. The program was >> written in C for Unix (e.g., Mac terminal or Linux). However, in 2008 >> Ugur Guney wrote an offshoot of this program that runs in real time, >> called Freqazoid. It is written in Java and is a free download at: >> <https://code.google.com/archive/p/freqazoid/downloads> >> >> Ugur is now (in his spare time) working on a real-time web-based >> version of freqazoid. >> >> Best, >> >> Jim >> >> James W. Beauchamp >> Research Professor >> Professor Emeritus of Music and Electrical & Computer Engineering >> University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign >> email:jwbeauch@xxxxxxxx (also:jwbeauch@xxxxxxxx) >> WWW:http://ems.music.uiuc.edu/beaucham >> http://www.ece.illinois.edu/directory/profile/jwbeauch >> >> * References on the Two-Way-Mismatch method: >> >> R. C. Maher and J. W. Beauchamp, "Fundamental frequency estimation >> of musical signals using a two-way mismatch procedure", J. Acoust. >> Soc. Am. 95(4), 2254-2263 (1994). >> >> J. W. Beauchamp, "Analysis and Synthesis of Musical Instrument Sounds"= , >> in Analysis, Synthesis, and Perception of Musical Sounds: Sound of >> Music, J. W. Beauchamp, Ed., Springer, N. Y., pp. 1 - 89 (2007). >> >> **********************************************************************= * >> Original message: >>> From: "Patel, Aniruddh D."<a.patel@xxxxxxxx> >>> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 15:02:13 +0000 >>> To:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx >>> Subject: Melodic movies >>> >>> Dear List, >>> >>> I have a question... there is a website where you can hear profession= al >>> Indian classical singing and watch the pitch of the singer's voice on >>> a scrolling graph which captures all the nuances in vivid detail. >>> >>> https://autrimncpa.wordpress.com/ >>> >>> (Click on a Raga on the left menu bar, then after the page loads, scr= oll >>> down and watch the associated movie.) >>> >>> My question is: does anyone know of a similar resource for western >>> classical singing? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Ani Patel >>> >>> Aniruddh D. Patel >>> Professor >>> Dept. of Psychology >>> Tufts University >>> 490 Boston Ave. >>> Medford, MA 02155 >>> Senior Fellow >>> Canadian Institute for Advanced Research (CIFAR) >>> Azrieli Program in Brain, Mind, & Consciousness >>> a.patel@xxxxxxxx<mailto:a.patel@xxxxxxxx> >>> http://ase.tufts.edu/psychology/people/patel/ >> =20 > > --------------C14BDBCB46334706A12F7A23 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by edgeum1.it.mcgill.ca id v4PCJXH2031869 <html> <head> <meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" http-equiv=3D"Content-Ty= pe"> </head> <body text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"> <p>Dear Adrian - dear list members<br> </p> <p>thanks for your comment! <meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Du= tf-8"> - Carl Seashore (1938) published graphical pictures of sung melodies by professional singers. I always wondered how this was achieved. But Seashore did not give the slightest reference!<br> </p> <p>Your comment and hint to EGG (electroglottography) being the most accurate reference for measuring vocal pitch is very interesting! Is it possible that Seashore and others used EGG to produce those pictures of sung melodies?</p> It is amazing that even nowadays, with all our knowledge and technology, the analysis of pitch is still a difficult enterprise, when it comes about the analysis of big data, e.g., large amounts of sung melodies or songs. In this context, I often see information on pitch reduced to unreliable and useless "data" by inacceptable, quick-and-dirty procedures ... <br> <br> Could you please tell the advantages of the non-invasive EGG? Could this be a method to cope with big data? And maybe even solve the problem with the interferences in acoustic signals due to polyphonic music making?<br> <p>Thanks and best wishes, Stefanie</p> <p> Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. Stefanie Stadler Elmer </p> <p> </p> <p> - University of Z=C3=BCrich=C2=A0 <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://www.psychologie.uzh.ch/institut/angehoerige/dozierende/sta= dler.html">http://www.psychologie.uzh.ch/institut/angehoerige/dozierende/= stadler.html</a> </p> <p> - Schwyz University of Teacher Education, <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"http://www.phsz.ch">www.phsz.ch</a> </p> <br> <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">Am 06.05.17 um 16:14 schrieb Adrian Fourcin:<br> </div> <blockquote cite=3D"mid:99600CF2-5203-4EE1-AA8A-B780366F958F@xxxxxxxx" type=3D"cite"> <meta http-equiv=3D"Context-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Du= tf-8"> <div>Dear Stefanie,</div> <div>Yes, the book by Wolfgang Hess is still a mine of information and his recommendation that the EGG signal provides the most accurate reference for voice "pitch" measurements still holds -- because the percept of voice pitch is primarily dependent on the acoustic excitation of the vocal tract that is derived from vocal fold contact.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Best wishes,</div> <div>Adrian</div> <div><br> On 1 May 2017, at 14:24, Stefanie Stadler Elmer <<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"mailto:stefanie.stadlerelmer@xxxxxxxx">stefanie.stadlerel= mer@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br> <br> </div> <div> <p> </p> <div class=3D"moz-text-html" lang=3D"x-western"> </div> <p>Dear list members</p> <p>Ani, thanks for sharing this fascinating website with Indian Ragas=C2=A0 on Febr. 28 2017, where the singing is analyzed and visualized in real time!</p> <p>It is very nicely done, indeed. Yet, different from you, Jim, I do not think that these analyses are "error free", since they use praat to calculate pitch out of the signal. This is one way to do it, yet, there are other possibilities, see e.g.,</p> <p> </p> <p> </p> <div class=3D"page" title=3D"Page 367"> <div class=3D"layoutArea"> <div class=3D"column"> <p><span>Hess, W. (1983). Pitch determination of speech signals: Algorithms and devices. New York: Springer.</s= pan></p> <p><span>Praat is a fantastic and powerful tool! It is optimized for speech sounds, and pitch analysis is done with one single algorithm! Depending on the signal, there could be more suitable ones. <br> </span></p> <p><span>My impression is that some people are not aware that pitch is not very well defined. Various algorithms may yield various results. Any calculation and visualization of pitch in a signal is an approximation by the use of a specific algorithm.<br> </span></p> In our research on children's singing, we analyze pitch at the basis of a program that offers two different algorithms, both selected for the typical sound quality of singing of and for children, e.g., without vibrato. This program and related instructions are available here for free: <br> <br> <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://mmatools.sourceforge.net/">http://mmatools= .sourceforge.net/</a><br> <br> Have fun and enjoy!<br> Stefanie Stadler Elmer<br> </div> </div> </div> <br> <div class=3D"moz-signature">-- <br> <p> Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. Stefanie Stadler Elmer </p> <p> </p> <p> - University of Z=C3=BCrich </p> <p> </p> <p> <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://www.psychologie.uzh.ch/institut/angehoerige/dozierende/sta= dler.html">http://www.psychologie.uzh.ch/institut/angehoerige/dozierende/= stadler.html</a> </p> <p> - Schwyz University of Teacher Education, <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"http://www.phsz.ch">www.phsz.ch</a> </p> <p> </p> <p> +41 41 859 05 75</p> </div> Am 01.03.17 um 17:09 schrieb James W. Beauchamp:<br> <blockquote cite=3D"mid:25962_1488431639_58B7AA17_25962_34_1_201703011609.v21G9Xbr027= 564@xxxxxxxx" type=3D"cite"> <pre wrap=3D"">Dear Ani, Thanks for informing the Auditory list about the Music in Motion web site! It's nice to see (and hear) these results. They seem to be error free.=20 I'm assuming that the drone accompaniment is on a different track; otherwise it would interfere with the voice pitch trace. Looking the site's Introduction pull-down, it appears that the program is using the Praat algorithm for pitch detection. I would think that the same=20 program would work for western singing except that the vertical scale=20 should ideally correspond to standard equal-tempered (ET) notes.=20 The software that I've been developing over many years, SNDAN,=20 includes a program, that uses the Two-Way-Mismatch method (written by=20 Robert C. Maher*), that makes pitch-vs.-time plots with the ET scale,=20 but it's not error free and it's not real time. The program was=20 written in C for Unix (e.g., Mac terminal or Linux). However, in 2008=20 Ugur Guney wrote an offshoot of this program that runs in real time,=20 called Freqazoid. It is written in Java and is a free download at: <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"https= ://code.google.com/archive/p/freqazoid/downloads"><https://code.google= .com/archive/p/freqazoid/downloads></a> Ugur is now (in his spare time) working on a real-time web-based=20 version of freqazoid. =20 Best, Jim James W. Beauchamp =20 Research Professor Professor Emeritus of Music and Electrical & Computer Engineering University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign email: <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" hre= f=3D"mailto:jwbeauch@xxxxxxxx">jwbeauch@xxxxxxxx</a> (also: <a mo= z-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:= jwbeauch@xxxxxxxx">jwbeauch@xxxxxxxx</a>) WWW: <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D= "http://ems.music.uiuc.edu/beaucham">http://ems.music.uiuc.edu/beaucham</= a> <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D= "http://www.ece.illinois.edu/directory/profile/jwbeauch">http://www.ece.i= llinois.edu/directory/profile/jwbeauch</a> * References on the Two-Way-Mismatch method: R. C. Maher and J. W. Beauchamp, "Fundamental frequency estimation=20 of musical signals using a two-way mismatch procedure", J. Acoust. Soc. Am. 95(4), 2254-2263 (1994). J. W. Beauchamp, "Analysis and Synthesis of Musical Instrument Sounds", in Analysis, Synthesis, and Perception of Musical Sounds: Sound of Music, J. W. Beauchamp, Ed., Springer, N. Y., pp. 1 - 89 (2007). *********************************************************************** Original message: </pre> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> <pre wrap=3D"">From: "Patel, Aniruddh D." <a moz-do-not-send=3D= "true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:a.patel@xxxxxxxx">= <a.patel@xxxxxxxx></a> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 15:02:13 +0000 To: <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D= "mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a> Subject: Melodic movies Dear List, I have a question... there is a website where you can hear professional Indian classical singing and watch the pitch of the singer's voice on a scrolling graph which captures all the nuances in vivid detail. <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https= ://autrimncpa.wordpress.com/">https://autrimncpa.wordpress.com/</a> (Click on a Raga on the left menu bar, then after the page loads, scroll down and watch the associated movie.) My question is: does anyone know of a similar resource for western=20 classical singing? Thanks, Ani Patel Aniruddh D. Patel Professor Dept. of Psychology Tufts University 490 Boston Ave. Medford, MA 02155 Senior Fellow Canadian Institute for Advanced Research (CIFAR) Azrieli Program in Brain, Mind, & Consciousness <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"ma= ilto:a.patel@xxxxxxxx">a.patel@xxxxxxxx</a><a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" = class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:a.patel@xxxxxxxx"><mai= lto:a.patel@xxxxxxxx></a> <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http:= //ase.tufts.edu/psychology/people/patel/">http://ase.tufts.edu/psychology= /people/patel/</a> </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=3D"">=20 </pre> </blockquote> <br> <br> </div> </blockquote> <br> </body> </html> --------------C14BDBCB46334706A12F7A23--