Subject: Re: Neural mechanisms of octave equivalence From: "Richard F. Lyon" <dicklyon@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2016 21:54:51 -0700 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>--047d7b604aacbbb00c053d61ed03 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Diana, your method starts with the "frequency specific neuron", which is what I don't find plausible in the context of "what the cochlea does". The primary auditory neurons from the cochlea respond to quite a range of frequencies (at medium and high sound levels), and even the frequency to which they respond best moves by more than a few semitones with loudness. Are there higher-level neurons that are more specific to frequency? Not that I know of. I agree with Jont that temporal mechanisms make more sense. Then harmonic pitch relations like octaves and other consonant intervals have a natural explanation in terms of common periods, rather than the convergences between different places that seem to be arbitrary or perhaps numerological= . Perhaps birds don't do this kind of temporal feature processing, but mammals do? Dick On Sat, Sep 24, 2016 at 9:55 PM, Diana Deutsch <ddeutsch@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > My early 1969 article : > > Deutsch, D. Music Recognition. *Psychological Review*, 1969, 76, 300-309, > [PDF Document <http://deutsch.ucsd.edu/pdf/PsychRev-1969_76_300-307.pdf>] > > proposed a neural network in which octave equivalence is subserved by > multipeak neurons that are spaced at octave intervals. It also proposes > neural underpinnings > of other characteristics of octave equivalence. > > > Diana > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Professor Diana Deutsch > Department of Psychology > University of California, San Diego > 9500 Gilman Dr. #0109 > La Jolla, CA 92093-0109, USA > > tel: 858-453-1558 > > http://deutsch.ucsd.edu > http://philomel.com > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > > On Sep 24, 2016, at 2:45 AM, Ian Cross <ic108@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > > Hi, Ani: A paper that you might find of interest is Moerel, M., De > Martino, F., Santoro, R., Yacoub, E., & Formisano, E. (2015). > Representation of pitch chroma by multi-peak spectral tuning in human > auditory cortex. *NeuroImage*, 106(0), 161-169. > > > On 24/09/2016 08:59, Alain de Cheveigne wrote: > > Hi Ani, > > Octave =E2=80=9Cequivalence=E2=80=9D is an emergent property of both patt= ern-matching and autocorrelation models of pitch. All harmonics of the tone= at the octave belong to the harmonic series of the lower tone. Likewise a= utocorrelation peaks of the lower tone coincide with peaks of the tone at t= he octave. Some neural instantiations of these models are Shihab Shamma=E2= =80=99s harmonic template model, or Cariani=E2=80=99s work on autocorrelati= on (based on Licklider=E2=80=99s ideas), and there are many others. Whethe= r or not any specific model is supported by anatomical or electrophysiologi= cal data is less clear. > > Actually =E2=80=9Cequivalence=E2=80=9D is a misnomer. The relation is not= commutative: the harmonics of the lower tone do not all belong to the harm= onic series of the octave. Likewise peaks of the autocorrelation of the oc= tave tone are not all peaks of the lower tone. Thus these models would pre= dict an asymmetry in the perceptual similarity between octaves (i.e. an oct= ave tone =E2=80=9Cresembles=E2=80=9D the lower tone but not vice-versa). I= don=E2=80=99t know of any relevant behavioral data or music-theoretical re= sults on this. > > Alain > > =E2=80=94 > de Cheveign=C3=A9, A. (2005) Pitch perception models. In: Pitch - Neural = coding and perception (Plack C, Oxenham A, eds). New York: Springer, 169-23= 3. (http://audition.ens.fr/adc/pdf/2005_pitch_SHAR.pdf) > Shamma S, and Klein D (2000) The case of the missing pitch templates: how= harmonic templates emerge in the early auditory system. J Acoust Soc Am 10= 7:2631-2644. > Cariani PA, and Delgutte B (1996b) Neural correlates of the pitch of comp= lex tones. II. Pitch shift, pitch ambiguity, phase-invariance, pitch circul= arity, rate-pitch and the dominance region for pitch. J Neurophysiol 76:171= 7-1734. > Licklider JCR (1951) A duplex theory of pitch perception (reproduced in S= chubert 1979, 155-160). Experientia 7:128-134. > > > > On 23 Sep 2016, at 13:06, Patel, Aniruddh D. <a.patel@xxxxxxxx> <a.patel= @xxxxxxxx> wrote: > > Dear List, > > Is anyone aware on theoretical or empirical papers on the neural mechanis= ms of octave equivalence in auditory perception? > > Interestingly, recent works suggests that songbirds may not perceive octa= ve equivalence: > > Hoeschele, M., Weisman, R. G., Guillette, L. M., Hahn, A. H., & Sturdy, C= . B. (2013). Chickadees fail standardized operant tests for octave equivale= nce. Animal cognition, 16(4), 599-609. > > Thanks, > > Ani Patel > > Aniruddh D. Patel > Professor > Dept. of Psychology > Tufts University > 490 Boston Ave. > Medford, MA 02155 > > Senior Fellow > Canadian Institute for Advanced Research (CIFAR) > Azrieli Program in Brain, Mind, & Consciousness > a.patel@xxxxxxxx://ase.tufts.edu/psychology/people/patel/ > > > -- > Ian Cross > Director, Centre for Music & Science > Faculty of Music > University of Cambridge > Cambridge CB3 9DPwww.cam.ac.uk/~cross > > > --047d7b604aacbbb00c053d61ed03 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Diana, your method starts with the "frequen= cy specific neuron", which is what I don't find plausible in the c= ontext of "<span class=3D"gmail-im">what the cochlea does".=C2=A0= The primary auditory neurons from the cochlea respond to quite a range of = frequencies (at medium and high sound levels), and even the frequency to wh= ich they respond best moves by more than a few semitones with loudness.=C2= =A0 Are there higher-level neurons that are more specific to frequency? Not= that I know of.<br><br></span></div><span class=3D"gmail-im">I agree with = Jont that temporal mechanisms make more sense.=C2=A0 Then harmonic pitch re= lations like octaves and other consonant intervals have a natural explanati= on in terms of common periods, rather than the convergences between differe= nt places that seem to be arbitrary or perhaps numerological.<br><br></span= ></div><div><span class=3D"gmail-im">Perhaps birds don't do this kind o= f temporal feature processing, but mammals do?<br></span></div><div><span c= lass=3D"gmail-im"><br></span></div><span class=3D"gmail-im">Dick<br><br></s= pan></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat,= Sep 24, 2016 at 9:55 PM, Diana Deutsch <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"ma= ilto:ddeutsch@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">ddeutsch@xxxxxxxx</a>></span> = wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord= er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word= ">My early 1969 article :<div><br><div><div><span style=3D"font-family:Verd= ana,geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(254,254,254)">De= utsch, D. Music Recognition.=C2=A0</span><i style=3D"font-family:Verdana,ge= neva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(254,254,254)">Psycholo= gical Review</i><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana,geneva,Arial,Helvetica,s= ans-serif;background-color:rgb(254,254,254)">, 1969, 76, 300-309,=C2=A0</sp= an><u></u>[<a href=3D"http://deutsch.ucsd.edu/pdf/PsychRev-1969_76_300-307.= pdf" style=3D"color:rgb(0,102,204);text-decoration:none" target=3D"_blank">= PDF Document</a>]<u></u></div><div><div><font face=3D"Verdana, geneva, Aria= l, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"white-space:nowrap;background-colo= r:rgb(254,254,254)"><br></span></font></div><div><font face=3D"Verdana, gen= eva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"white-space:nowrap;backgr= ound-color:rgb(254,254,254)">proposed a neural network in which =C2=A0octav= e equivalence is subserved by multipeak neurons that are spaced at octave i= ntervals. It also proposes =C2=A0neural underpinnings=C2=A0</span></font></= div><div><font face=3D"Verdana, geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span= style=3D"white-space:nowrap;background-color:rgb(254,254,254)">of other ch= aracteristics of octave equivalence.=C2=A0</span></font></div><div><br></di= v><div><font face=3D"Verdana, geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span s= tyle=3D"white-space:nowrap;background-color:rgb(254,254,254)"><br></span></= font></div><div><font face=3D"Verdana, geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif= "><span style=3D"white-space:nowrap;background-color:rgb(254,254,254)">Dian= a</span></font></div><div><font face=3D"Verdana, geneva, Arial, Helvetica, = sans-serif"><span style=3D"white-space:nowrap;background-color:rgb(254,254,= 254)"><br></span></font></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12px;text-align= :-webkit-auto">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</span>= </div><div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:= normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-he= ight:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi= te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:= rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font= -weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-= auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0p= x;word-wrap:break-word"><span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height= :normal;border-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"font-size:12px"><div>Professor D= iana Deutsch</div><div>Department of Psychology=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0</div><= div>University of California, San Diego</div><div>9500 Gilman Dr. #0109=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>La Jolla, CA 92093-0= 109, USA</div><div><br></div><div>tel: <a href=3D"tel:858-453-1558" value= =3D"+18584531558" target=3D"_blank">858-453-1558</a>=C2=A0</div><div><br></= div><div><a href=3D"http://deutsch.ucsd.edu" target=3D"_blank">http://deuts= ch.ucsd.edu</a></div><div><a href=3D"http://philomel.com" target=3D"_blank"= >http://philomel.com</a></div><div>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - = - - - - - - -</div><div><br></div></span></span></div></div> </div> <br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span class=3D""><div>On Sep 24, 2016, a= t 2:45 AM, Ian Cross <<a href=3D"mailto:ic108@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blan= k">ic108@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:</div><br></span><div> =20 <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000"><span class=3D""> Hi, Ani: A paper that you might find of interest is Moerel, M., De Martino, F., Santoro, R., Yacoub, E., & Formisano, E. (2015). Representation of pitch chroma by multi-peak spectral tuning in human auditory cortex. <i>NeuroImage</i>, 106(0), 161-169.<br> <br> <br> </span><div><div class=3D"h5"><div>On 24/09/2016 08:59, Alain de Chevei= gne wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> <pre>Hi Ani,=20 Octave =E2=80=9Cequivalence=E2=80=9D is an emergent property of both patter= n-matching and autocorrelation models of pitch. All harmonics of the tone a= t the octave belong to the harmonic series of the lower tone. Likewise aut= ocorrelation peaks of the lower tone coincide with peaks of the tone at the= octave. Some neural instantiations of these models are Shihab Shamma=E2= =80=99s harmonic template model, or Cariani=E2=80=99s work on autocorrelati= on (based on Licklider=E2=80=99s ideas), and there are many others. Whethe= r or not any specific model is supported by anatomical or electrophysiologi= cal data is less clear. Actually =E2=80=9Cequivalence=E2=80=9D is a misnomer. The relation is not c= ommutative: the harmonics of the lower tone do not all belong to the harmon= ic series of the octave. Likewise peaks of the autocorrelation of the octa= ve tone are not all peaks of the lower tone. Thus these models would predi= ct an asymmetry in the perceptual similarity between octaves (i.e. an octav= e tone =E2=80=9Cresembles=E2=80=9D the lower tone but not vice-versa). I d= on=E2=80=99t know of any relevant behavioral data or music-theoretical resu= lts on this. Alain =E2=80=94 de Cheveign=C3=A9, A. (2005) Pitch perception models. In: Pitch - Neural co= ding and perception (Plack C, Oxenham A, eds). New York: Springer, 169-233.= (<a href=3D"http://audition.ens.fr/adc/pdf/2005_pitch_SHAR.pdf" target=3D"= _blank">http://audition.ens.fr/adc/<wbr>pdf/2005_pitch_SHAR.pdf</a>) Shamma S, and Klein D (2000) The case of the missing pitch templates: how h= armonic templates emerge in the early auditory system. J Acoust Soc Am 107:= 2631-2644. Cariani PA, and Delgutte B (1996b) Neural correlates of the pitch of comple= x tones. II. Pitch shift, pitch ambiguity, phase-invariance, pitch circular= ity, rate-pitch and the dominance region for pitch. J Neurophysiol 76:1717-= 1734. Licklider JCR (1951) A duplex theory of pitch perception (reproduced in Sch= ubert 1979, 155-160). Experientia 7:128-134. </pre> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> <pre>On 23 Sep 2016, at 13:06, Patel, Aniruddh D. <a href=3D"mailto= :a.patel@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank"><a.patel@xxxxxxxx></a> wrote: Dear List, =20 Is anyone aware on theoretical or empirical papers on the neural mechanisms= of octave equivalence in auditory perception? =20 Interestingly, recent works suggests that songbirds may not perceive octave= equivalence: =20 Hoeschele, M., Weisman, R. G., Guillette, L. M., Hahn, A. H., & Sturdy,= C. B. (2013). Chickadees fail standardized operant tests for octave equiva= lence. Animal cognition, 16(4), 599-609. =20 Thanks, =20 Ani Patel =20 Aniruddh D. Patel Professor Dept. of Psychology Tufts University 490 Boston Ave. Medford, MA 02155 =20 Senior Fellow Canadian Institute for Advanced Research (CIFAR) Azrieli Program in Brain, Mind, & Consciousness =20 <a href=3D"mailto:a.patel@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">a.patel@xxxxxxxx</a= > <a href=3D"http://ase.tufts.edu/psychology/people/patel/" target=3D"_blank"= >http://ase.tufts.edu/<wbr>psychology/people/patel/</a> </pre> </blockquote> </blockquote> <br> </div></div><span class=3D""><pre cols=3D"72">--=20 Ian Cross Director, Centre for Music & Science Faculty of Music University of Cambridge Cambridge CB3 9DP <a href=3D"http://www.cam.ac.uk/~cross" target=3D"_blank">www.cam.ac.uk/~cr= oss</a></pre> </span></div> </div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br= ></div> --047d7b604aacbbb00c053d61ed03--