Subject: Re: Statistics for word rate in natural speech From: Dan McCloy <drmccloy@xxxxxxxx> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 21:47:42 -0700 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>--001a114e428cfb38c70535fede7b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I haven't read the Du, Lin and Wang study, but I can confirm your suspicion that many (perhaps most) Chinese words are disyllabic, so if the study is equating Chinese syllables or characters to Chinese words when reporting speech rate then it is misleading. A more accurate equation is that each syllable is one *morpheme* (though there are exceptions even to that rule). On Jun 23, 2016 21:15, "Kevin Austin" <kevin.austin@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > Hi > > I would call upon a fluent speaker of mandarin to comment on this, but I= =E2=80=99m > not sure that there is a strong parallel between rates of =E2=80=9Cwords= =E2=80=9D [sic] > between mandarin and english. [I do not speak or understand mandarin but > have had a number of lessons.] > > Given the importance of intonation of chinese characters, 400 =E2=80=98wo= rds=E2=80=99 > [sic] per minute =E2=80=94 [I would guess that a more correct translation= would be > =E2=80=98characters=E2=80=99], works out to about 15/sec =E2=80=94 ~60ms.= This is, as I understand > it, towards the upper limit of pitch streaming in music, for instruments > such as the piano or sitar. > > To extract 15 intonation curves per second may be strongly dependent upon > having a good contextual knowledge, and a mid-level [predictive] grouping > of characters, again, by context, so that meaning can be derived. > > > Kevin > > > > > On 2016, Jun 22, at 3:52 PM, Gerry A Stefanatos <stefang@xxxxxxxx> > wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > I am also finding it very helpful to get this input from such diverse > and widely read group of contributors. Thank-you. > > > > Here are a couple of other citations to add to the pile. > > > > Sandra Duchin and Edward Mysak (1987) DISFLUENCY AND RATE > CHARACTERISTICS OF YOUNG ADULT, MIDDLE-AGED, AND OLDER MALES. Journal of > Communication Disorders, 20, pgs 245-257. They calculated both syllables > per second and words per minute in different age groups ranging from youn= g > adult to the elderly. Measurements were taken during conversation, pictur= e > description and oral reading. Not surprisingly, the rates varied across > speaking measures. Oral reading was fastest, followed by conversation and > finally picture description. All declined with age. (Note, included inter > sentence pauses in the calculations.) The maximum speaking rate as indexe= d > by syllables/second was evident in young adults during oral reading ( mea= n > =3D 4.69, SD =3D.77). Average word rate/min was highest in young adults d= uring > oral reading (219.9, SD=3D37.1) decreasing to 182.7 (SD=3D17.2) during > conversation. > > > > Also of potential interest, a fairly recent study using Chinese speaker= s > and listeners suggested that speech remains readily intelligible until > about 400 words per minute and then declines rapidly from 400 to 1200 wor= ds > per minute (Du, Lin & Wang (2014), Effect of speech rate for sentences on > speech intelligibility, IEEE, pgs 233-236) > > > > Gerry > > -- > > Gerry A. Stefanatos, D.Phil. > > Associate Professor > > Director, Cognitive Neurophysiology Lab > > Dept of Communication Science & Disorders > > Temple University > > 1301 N. 13th St. > > Philadelphia, PA, 19122. > > http://www.tuneurolab.com/ > > > > > > > > > > On 6/22/16, 5:00 AM, "AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception on > behalf of Bruno L. Giordano" <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx on behalf of > brungio@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > Thank you all for the useful references and discussion! > > > > Another I found for speech rate (wpm) but also syllabic rate is this on= e: > > > > @xxxxxxxx{tauroza1990speech, > > title=3D{Speech rates in british english}, > > author=3D{Tauroza, Steve and Allison, Desmond}, > > journal=3D{Applied linguistics}, > > volume=3D{11}, > > number=3D{1}, > > pages=3D{90--105}, > > year=3D{1990}, > > publisher=3D{Am Assoc Appl Ling} > > } > > > > Best, > > > > Bruno > > > > On 21/06/2016 02:56, Kevin Austin wrote: > >> Thank you. > >> > >> In Dunn and White(1940) at the bottom of page 282, the article reads: > >> > >>>>> R.M.S. IN ONE-FOURTH-SECOND INTERVALS > >>>>> > >>>>> The one-eighth-second interval, used in the preceding work, was > chosen as being of the same order of magnitude as the length of a syllabl= e. > >> > >> I did not see the reference to =E2=80=98how=E2=80=99 this was determin= ed. My reading of > =E2=80=98order of magnitude=E2=80=99 is that this is a factor of ten. If = my understanding > is approximately correct, this would mean that rather than 125 ms being t= he > length of a syllable, a syllable could be from about 65ms to 650ms in > duration. > >> > >> My understanding of the article is that it is about peak and R.M.S. > pressures in 125 ms intervals in 12 frequency bands up to 12kHz. > >> > >> > >> Kevin > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> On 2016, Jun 20, at 7:33 AM, Christine Rankovic < > rankovic@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > >>> > >>> Dunn and White (1940) is a classic report on speech measurements. > They assumed 1/8-second as the length of a syllable for their classic > measurements. > >>> > >>> The reference is: Dunn, H.K. and White, S.D. (1940). Statistical > Measurements on Conversational Speech. Journal of the Acoustical Society > of America 11:278-288. > >>> > >>> Christine Rankovic, PhD > >>> Speech and Hearing Scientist > >>> > >>> > > > > -- > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Bruno L. Giordano, PhD > > Institute of Neuroscience and Psychology > > 58 Hillhead Street, University of Glasgow > > Glasgow, G12 8QB, Scotland > > T +44 (0) 141 330 5484 > > Www: http://www.brunolgiordano.net > > Email charter: http://www.emailcharter.org/ > > > > > --001a114e428cfb38c70535fede7b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <p dir=3D"ltr">I haven't read the Du, Lin and Wang study, but I can con= firm your suspicion that many (perhaps most) Chinese words are disyllabic, = so if the study is equating Chinese syllables or characters to Chinese word= s when reporting speech rate then it is misleading. A more accurate equatio= n is that each syllable is one *morpheme* (though there are exceptions even= to that rule).</p> <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Jun 23, 2016 21:15, "Kevin Austin" = <<a href=3D"mailto:kevin.austin@xxxxxxxx">kevin.austin@xxxxxxxx<= /a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st= yle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi<br= > <br> I would call upon a fluent speaker of mandarin to comment on this, but I=E2= =80=99m not sure that there is a strong=C2=A0 parallel between rates of =E2= =80=9Cwords=E2=80=9D [sic] between mandarin and english. [I do not speak or= understand mandarin but have had a number of lessons.]<br> <br> Given the importance of intonation of chinese characters, 400 =E2=80=98word= s=E2=80=99 [sic] per minute =E2=80=94 [I would guess that a more correct tr= anslation would be =E2=80=98characters=E2=80=99], works out to about 15/sec= =E2=80=94 ~60ms. This is, as I understand it, towards the upper limit of p= itch streaming in music, for instruments such as the piano or sitar.<br> <br> To extract 15 intonation curves per second may be strongly dependent upon h= aving a good contextual knowledge, and a mid-level [predictive] grouping of= characters, again, by context, so that meaning can be derived.<br> <br> <br> Kevin<br> <br> <br> <br> > On 2016, Jun 22, at 3:52 PM, Gerry A Stefanatos <<a href=3D"mailto:= stefang@xxxxxxxx">stefang@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br> ><br> > Hi all,<br> ><br> > I am also finding it very helpful to get this input from such diverse = and widely read=C2=A0 group of contributors. Thank-you.<br> ><br> > Here are a couple of other citations to add to the pile.<br> ><br> > Sandra Duchin and Edward Mysak (1987) DISFLUENCY AND RATE CHARACTERIST= ICS OF YOUNG ADULT, MIDDLE-AGED, AND OLDER MALES. Journal of Communication = Disorders, 20, pgs 245-257. They calculated both syllables per second and w= ords per minute in different age groups ranging from young adult to the eld= erly. Measurements were taken during conversation, picture description and = oral reading. Not surprisingly, the rates varied across speaking measures. = Oral reading was fastest, followed by conversation and finally picture desc= ription. All declined with age. (Note, included inter sentence pauses in th= e calculations.) The maximum speaking rate as indexed by syllables/second w= as evident in young adults during oral reading ( mean =3D 4.69, SD =3D.77).= Average word rate/min was highest in young adults during oral reading (219= .9, SD=3D37.1) decreasing to 182.7 (SD=3D17.2) during conversation.<br> ><br> > Also of potential interest, a fairly recent study using Chinese speake= rs and listeners suggested that speech remains readily intelligible until a= bout 400 words per minute and then declines rapidly from 400 to 1200 words = per minute (Du, Lin & Wang (2014), Effect of speech rate for sentences = on speech intelligibility, IEEE, pgs 233-236)<br> ><br> > Gerry<br> > --<br> > Gerry A. Stefanatos, D.Phil.<br> > Associate Professor<br> > Director, Cognitive Neurophysiology Lab<br> > Dept of Communication Science & Disorders<br> > Temple University<br> > 1301 N. 13th St.<br> > Philadelphia, PA, 19122.<br> > <a href=3D"http://www.tuneurolab.com/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_b= lank">http://www.tuneurolab.com/</a><br> ><br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > On 6/22/16, 5:00 AM, "AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception = on behalf of Bruno L. Giordano" <<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= CGILL.CA">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a> on behalf of <a href=3D"mailto:brung= io@xxxxxxxx">brungio@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br> ><br> > Thank you all for the useful references and discussion!<br> ><br> > Another I found for speech rate (wpm) but also syllabic rate is this o= ne:<br> ><br> > @xxxxxxxx{tauroza1990speech,<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0title=3D{Speech rates in british english},<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0author=3D{Tauroza, Steve and Allison, Desmond},<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0journal=3D{Applied linguistics},<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0volume=3D{11},<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0number=3D{1},<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0pages=3D{90--105},<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0year=3D{1990},<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0publisher=3D{Am Assoc Appl Ling}<br> > }<br> ><br> > Best,<br> ><br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Bruno<br> ><br> > On 21/06/2016 02:56, Kevin Austin wrote:<br> >> Thank you.<br> >><br> >> In Dunn and White(1940) at the bottom of page 282, the article rea= ds:<br> >><br> >>>>> R.M.S. IN ONE-FOURTH-SECOND INTERVALS<br> >>>>><br> >>>>> The one-eighth-second interval, used in the preceding = work, was chosen as being of the same order of magnitude as the length of a= syllable.<br> >><br> >> I did not see the reference to =E2=80=98how=E2=80=99 this was dete= rmined. My reading of =E2=80=98order of magnitude=E2=80=99 is that this is = a factor of ten. If my understanding is approximately correct, this would m= ean that rather than 125 ms being the length of a syllable, a syllable coul= d be from about 65ms to 650ms in duration.<br> >><br> >> My understanding of the article is that it is about peak and R.M.S= . pressures in 125 ms intervals in 12 frequency bands up to 12kHz.<br> >><br> >><br> >> Kevin<br> >><br> >><br> >><br> >><br> >>> On 2016, Jun 20, at 7:33 AM, Christine Rankovic <<a href=3D= "mailto:rankovic@xxxxxxxx">rankovic@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:= <br> >>><br> >>> Dunn and White (1940) is a classic report on speech measuremen= ts.=C2=A0 They assumed 1/8-second as the length of a syllable for their cla= ssic measurements.<br> >>><br> >>> The reference is:=C2=A0 Dunn, H.K. and White, S.D. (1940). Sta= tistical Measurements on Conversational Speech.=C2=A0 Journal of the Acoust= ical Society of America 11:278-288.<br> >>><br> >>> Christine Rankovic, PhD<br> >>> Speech and Hearing Scientist<br> >>><br> >>><br> ><br> > --<br> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br> > Bruno L. Giordano, PhD<br> > Institute of Neuroscience and Psychology<br> > 58 Hillhead Street, University of Glasgow<br> > Glasgow, G12 8QB, Scotland<br> > T +44 (0) 141 330 5484<br> > Www: <a href=3D"http://www.brunolgiordano.net" rel=3D"noreferrer" targ= et=3D"_blank">http://www.brunolgiordano.net</a><br> > Email charter: <a href=3D"http://www.emailcharter.org/" rel=3D"norefer= rer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.emailcharter.org/</a><br> ><br> ><br> </blockquote></div> --001a114e428cfb38c70535fede7b--