Subject: Re: Optimal sweep duration for BRIR measurements From: Brian FG Katz <brian.katz@xxxxxxxx> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 18:46:05 +0200 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0066_01D0C89C.7E7A6BF0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0067_01D0C89C.7E7A6BF0" ------=_NextPart_001_0067_01D0C89C.7E7A6BF0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_002_0068_01D0C89C.7E7A6BF0" ------=_NextPart_002_0068_01D0C89C.7E7A6BF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear John, =20 As others have pointed out, increasing the length of the sweep increases your signal-to-noise ratio. For large room acoustics, we typically use sweeps of 20 to 40 seconds. This of course depends on the size of your = room, its reverberation time, and the power of your source. The weaker the = source, the longer the sweep. You should basically do a test and see what SNR = you get. If you need more, and your measurement chain is at its limit, the = only option is longer sweep. Longer sweeps will not help much with impulsive interruptions, while averaging will.With a single sweep, basically that freq-range during the noise is lost. If you are just measuring from the = RIR, this may not be an issue, as measurement parameters are often in octave-bands, but this is not true for auralization usage; corrupt data = is corrupt data, though I haven=92t gone through a thorough study of this = actual case. =20 =20 The sweep should definitely be longer than the RT, for room = measurements. Then, don=92t forget that you need to record the sweep length PLUS the = RT or more if your SNR is better than 60dB! =20 We have also compared averaging repeated sweeps vs. longer sweeps. = Avoiding the recent developments in overlapping sweep processing, this basic repetition approach =91requires=92 the decay of the first sweep to = finish before you launch the second sweep. As such, 3x20 second sweeps take longer = than 1 x 60 second sweep, due to the additional pauses. Of course, without repetitions, you have no backup in case something goes wrong, like a = door slam or something. So, I tend to use repeated sweeps and take the best = 1.=20 =20 We do all our processing in MatLab, and have never had an issue (within = the last 20 years) of processing long sweeps in real halls.=20 =20 As you are considering BRIR, and not anechoic HRTFs, you are subject to = the same conditions. If you want to convolve the BRIR directly, you will = need to ensure that the SNR is sufficiently high that the noise-floor is not = audible as a late reverb part of the BRIR. Some noise extension methods exist = from older studies on basic auralization and scale model RIR auralizations. I cannot imagine a 2s sweep for BRIR unless you are measuring an office of other room with <1 sec RT. I think there is a fault in your correlation-based analysis for reliability, and there are too many = factors to consider in comparing BRIR of different lengths. First, examine your = SNR. =20 Regarding distortion of the source, this should be an issue for the processing element (different from burning out you speaker). This is = because one of the strengths of the sweep method (when done correctly) is that = any harmonic distortion components of a higher frequency that the excitation signal at the time or folded back to BEFORE the direct sound after deconvolution by the excitation signal (as that frequency has yet to be generated). We presented a through work on this feature, extending = Farina=92s earlier works, to general conditions: =20 M. R=E9billat, R. Hennequin, E. Corteel, and B. Katz, =93Identification = of cascade of Hammerstein models for the description of nonlinearities in vibrating devices,=94 J. Sound and Vibration, vol. 330, pp. 1018=961038, = 2011, (doi:10.1016/j.jsv.2010.09.012). =20 This method lets you actually extract and analyse the different harmonic distortions (THD etc.) as well as allowing for the modelling of = non-linear responses. =20 =20 Cheers, Brian=20 -- Brian FG Katz, Ph.D, HDR Resp. Groupe Audio & Acoustique LIMSI - CNRS Rue John von Neumann Campus Universitaire d'Orsay, B=E2t 508 91405 Orsay cedex=20 France Phone. + 33 (0)1 69 85 80 67 - Fax. + 33 (0)1 69 85 80 88 <http://www.limsi.fr/> http://www.limsi.fr web_group: <http://www.limsi.fr/Scientifique/aa/> = http://www.limsi.fr/Scientifique/aa/ web_theme: <http://www.limsi.fr/Scientifique/aa/thmsonesp/> http://www.limsi.fr/Scientifique/aa/thmsonesp/ =20 De : AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception [mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx De la part de Anders Tornvig = Christensen Envoy=E9 : lundi 27 juillet 2015 09:07 =C0 : AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx Objet : Re: Optimal sweep duration for BRIR measurements =20 Hello John, The sweep method at a single frequency is an approximation to a = steady-state measurement with a pure tone. Longer sweeps give higher signal to noise ratio per sweep because it spends more time per frequency.=20 Short repeated sweeps (but not shorter than the length of the impulse response) are good, if time-varying or sudden noise that doesn't average = out is likely to contaminate the measurement. Sweep duration (and "rate" in general) also matters if the system (room = in your case) is nonlinear, time-variant, or both, but that's another discussion. Something is wrong with your implementation if the temporal offset of = the impulse responses you measure depends on the sweep duration. You should = be able to check this by connecting the output of your sound card directly = to its input. Also note that wrongly measured or wrongly computed impulse responses may be very reproducible in terms of correlation. Best, Anders PhD student in acoustics Aalborg University, Denmark _____ =20 From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception = [AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx on behalf of John Culling [CullingJ@xxxxxxxx Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 5:25 PM To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx Subject: Optimal sweep duration for BRIR measurements Dear all, =20 Basic Q=85 =20 Does anyone have insight into the optimum sweep duration using Farina's method for measuring room impulses responses? =20 More detailed background=85 =20 We are planning to make an extensive series of measurements, and in preparation have been testing the method using different sweep durations. One way to = check the method is to correlate the impulses respones from repeated measurements or = those generated=20 with different durations. To our surprise short sweeps (1-2 seconds) = appear to give more=20 reliable results (repeated sweeps correlate, r>0.98) than longer ones. Comparing sweeps of different durations is a little trickier, because we find a temporal offset that reduces the correlation and can only be partially overcome by using cross-correlation. Nonetheless, it is apparent that durations from 1 second upwards correlate well, = while going below one second leads to reliable IRs, but ones that are inaccurate when compared with those from longer sweep durations.=20 =20 Our surprising conclusion is that ~2s should be fine, but Farina refers = to an ISO standard that=20 recommends very long sweeps (Farina has an example of 50s) to help = overcome noise. This seems an unintuitive rationale to us, since longer sweeps should increase both the=20 signal energy captured and the noise energy, and the method does not = involve averaging as far as I understand. Longer durations should help address brief interupting sounds, but=20 I am unsure if that it what was the idea. In the presence of continuous noise, we did not=20 notice any improvement in the IRs produced by longer sweeps. =20 The nascent plan is to take >1 short sweep for each measurement and = reject IRs that that don't correlate well with another. =20 Any insights/advice appreciated, =20 John. =20 Prof. John Culling School of Psychology, Cardiff University Tel: +44 (0)29 2087 4556 Yr Athro John Culling Yr Ysgol Seicoleg, Prifysgol Caerdydd=20 Ff=F4n : +44 (0)29 2087 4556 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_002_0068_01D0C89C.7E7A6BF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta name=3DGenerator = content=3D"Microsoft Word 14 (filtered medium)"><!--[if = !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </style><![endif]--><style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @xxxxxxxx {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @xxxxxxxx {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:#0563C1; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:#954F72; text-decoration:underline;} p {mso-style-priority:99; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} p.MsoAcetate, li.MsoAcetate, div.MsoAcetate {mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-link:"Texte de bulles Car"; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:8.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";} p.msochpdefault, li.msochpdefault, div.msochpdefault {mso-style-name:msochpdefault; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";} span.emailstyle17 {mso-style-name:emailstyle17; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:windowtext;} span.EmailStyle20 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;} span.TextedebullesCar {mso-style-name:"Texte de bulles Car"; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-link:"Texte de bulles"; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-size:10.0pt;} @xxxxxxxx WordSection1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} --></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1027" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DFR = link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3DWordSection1><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Dear = John,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:#1F497D'>As others = have pointed out, increasing the length of the sweep increases your = signal-to-noise ratio. For large room acoustics, =A0we typically use = sweeps of 20 to 40 seconds. This of course depends on the size of your = room, its reverberation time, and the power of your source. The weaker = the source, the longer the sweep. You should basically do a test and see = what SNR you get. If you need more, and your measurement chain is at its = limit, the only option is longer sweep. Longer sweeps will not help much = with impulsive interruptions, while averaging will.With a single sweep, = basically that freq-range during the noise is lost. If you are just = measuring from the RIR, this may not be an issue, as measurement = parameters are often in octave-bands, but this is not true for = auralization usage; corrupt data is corrupt data, though I haven’t = gone through a thorough study of this actual case. = =A0<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The sweep = should definitely be longer than the RT, for room measurements. Then, = don’t forget that you need to record the sweep length PLUS the RT = or more if your SNR is better than 60dB!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:#1F497D'>We have = also compared averaging repeated sweeps vs. longer sweeps. Avoiding the = recent developments in overlapping sweep processing, this basic = repetition approach ‘requires’ the decay of the first sweep = to finish before you launch the second sweep. As such, 3x20 second = sweeps take longer than 1 x 60 second sweep, due to the additional = pauses. Of course, without repetitions, you have no backup in case = something goes wrong, like a door slam or something. So, I tend to use = repeated sweeps and take the best 1. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:#1F497D'>We do all = our processing in MatLab, and have never had an issue (within the last = 20 years) of processing long sweeps in real halls. = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:#1F497D'>As you are = considering BRIR, and not anechoic HRTFs, you are subject to the same = conditions. If you want to convolve the BRIR directly, you will need to = ensure that the SNR is sufficiently high that the noise-floor is not = audible as a late reverb part of the BRIR. Some noise extension methods = exist from older studies on basic auralization and scale model RIR = auralizations. I cannot imagine a 2s sweep for BRIR unless you are = measuring an office of other room with <1 sec RT. I think there is a = fault in your correlation-based analysis for reliability, and there are = too many factors to consider in comparing BRIR of different lengths. = First, examine your SNR. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Regarding = distortion of the source, this should be an issue for the processing = element (different from burning out you speaker). This is because one of = the strengths of the sweep method (when done correctly) is that any = harmonic distortion components of a higher frequency that the excitation = signal at the time or folded back to BEFORE the direct sound after = deconvolution by the excitation signal (as that frequency has yet to be = generated). We presented a through work on this feature, extending = Farina’s earlier works, to general = conditions:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:#1F497D'>M. R=E9billat, R. Hennequin, E. Corteel, and B. = Katz, “Identification of cascade of Hammerstein models for the = description of nonlinearities in vibrating devices,” J. Sound and = Vibration, vol. 330, pp. 1018–1038, 2011, = (doi:10.1016/j.jsv.2010.09.012).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:#1F497D'>This method = lets you actually extract and analyse the different harmonic distortions = (THD etc.) as well as allowing for the modelling of non-linear = responses. =A0<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Brian = <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:#1F497D'>--<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Brian FG Katz, Ph.D, = HDR<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Resp. Groupe Audio & = Acoustique<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><!--[if gte vml = 1]><v:shapetype id=3D"_x0000_t75" coordsize=3D"21600,21600" o:spt=3D"75" = o:preferrelative=3D"t" path=3D"m@xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxx" filled=3D"f" = stroked=3D"f"> <v:stroke joinstyle=3D"miter" /> <v:formulas> <v:f eqn=3D"if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0" /> <v:f eqn=3D"sum @xxxxxxxx 1 0" /> <v:f eqn=3D"sum 0 0 @xxxxxxxx" /> <v:f eqn=3D"prod @xxxxxxxx 1 2" /> <v:f eqn=3D"prod @xxxxxxxx 21600 pixelWidth" /> <v:f eqn=3D"prod @xxxxxxxx 21600 pixelHeight" /> <v:f eqn=3D"sum @xxxxxxxx 0 1" /> <v:f eqn=3D"prod @xxxxxxxx 1 2" /> <v:f eqn=3D"prod @xxxxxxxx 21600 pixelWidth" /> <v:f eqn=3D"sum @xxxxxxxx 21600 0" /> <v:f eqn=3D"prod @xxxxxxxx 21600 pixelHeight" /> <v:f eqn=3D"sum @xxxxxxxx 21600 0" /> </v:formulas> <v:path o:extrusionok=3D"f" gradientshapeok=3D"t" o:connecttype=3D"rect" = /> <o:lock v:ext=3D"edit" aspectratio=3D"t" /> </v:shapetype><v:shape id=3D"Image_x0020_2" o:spid=3D"_x0000_s1026" = type=3D"#_x0000_t75" = style=3D'position:absolute;margin-left:-.25pt;margin-top:.45pt;width:66.5= 5pt;height:34.6pt;z-index:251659264;visibility:visible;mso-wrap-style:squ= are;mso-width-percent:0;mso-height-percent:0;mso-wrap-distance-left:9pt;m= so-wrap-distance-top:0;mso-wrap-distance-right:9pt;mso-wrap-distance-bott= om:0;mso-position-horizontal:absolute;mso-position-horizontal-relative:te= xt;mso-position-vertical:absolute;mso-position-vertical-relative:text;mso= -width-percent:0;mso-height-percent:0;mso-width-relative:page;mso-height-= relative:page'> <v:imagedata src=3D"cid:image001.png@xxxxxxxx" o:title=3D"" = croptop=3D"22737f" cropbottom=3D"8693f" /> <w:wrap type=3D"square"/> </v:shape><![endif]--><![if !vml]><img width=3D89 height=3D46 = src=3D"cid:image002.jpg@xxxxxxxx" align=3Dleft hspace=3D12 = v:shapes=3D"Image_x0020_2"><![endif]><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>LIMSI - CNRS<br></span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Rue John von Neumann<br>Campus = Universitaire d'Orsay, B=E2t 508<br>91405 Orsay cedex</span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>France<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Phone. </span><span = lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>+ 33 (0)1 69 = 85 80 67 - Fax. + 33 (0)1 69 85 80 88</span><span = lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:#1F497D'><br></span><span lang=3DEN-US = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><a href=3D"http://www.limsi.fr/" = target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>http://www.limsi.fr</span></a>=A0=A0= =A0 </span><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>web_group: </span><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'><a = href=3D"http://www.limsi.fr/Scientifique/aa/"><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:blue'>http://www.limsi.fr/Scientifique/aa/</span></a></spa= n><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>=A0=A0=A0=A0 web_theme: = </span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'><a = href=3D"http://www.limsi.fr/Scientifique/aa/thmsonesp/"><span = lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:blue'>http://www.limsi.fr/Scientifique/aa/thmsonesp/</span= ></a></span><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div = style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm = 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>De :</s= pan></b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> AUDITORY - = Research in Auditory Perception [mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <b>De = la part de</b> Anders Tornvig Christensen<br><b>Envoy=E9 :</b> = lundi 27 juillet 2015 09:07<br><b>=C0 :</b> = AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx<br><b>Objet :</b> Re: Optimal sweep = duration for BRIR measurements<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>= Hello John,<br><br>The sweep method at a single frequency is an = approximation to a steady-state measurement with a pure tone. Longer = sweeps give higher signal to noise ratio per sweep because it spends = more time per frequency. <br><br>Short repeated sweeps (but not shorter = than the length of the impulse response) are good, if time-varying or = sudden noise that doesn't average out is likely to contaminate the = measurement.<br><br>Sweep duration (and "rate" in general) = also matters if the system (room in your case) is nonlinear, = time-variant, or both, but that's another discussion.<br><br>Something = is wrong with your implementation if the temporal offset of the impulse = responses you measure depends on the sweep duration. You should be able = to check this by connecting the output of your sound card directly to = its input. Also note that wrongly measured or wrongly computed impulse = responses may be very reproducible in terms of = correlation.<br><br>Best,<br>Anders<br><br>PhD student in = acoustics<br>Aalborg University, Denmark<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div = class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span = lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif";color:black'><hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" = align=3Dcenter></span></div><div id=3DdivRpF437927><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>= From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>= AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception [AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx = on behalf of John Culling [CullingJ@xxxxxxxx<br><b>Sent:</b> = Friday, July 24, 2015 5:25 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a = href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a><br>= <b>Subject:</b> Optimal sweep duration for BRIR measurements</span><span = lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:black'>Dear = all,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:black'>Basic = Q…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:black'>Does anyone = have insight into the optimum sweep duration using Farina's = method<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:black'>for measuring room impulses = responses?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:black'>More detailed = background…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:black'>We are = planning to make an extensive series of measurements, and in preparation = have<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:black'>been testing the method using different sweep = durations. One way to check the method<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:black'>is to = correlate the impulses respones from repeated measurements or those = generated <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:black'>with different durations. To our surprise = short sweeps (1-2 seconds) appear to give more <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:black'>reliable = results (repeated sweeps correlate, r>0.98) than longer ones. = Comparing sweeps<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:black'>of different durations is a little = trickier, because we find a temporal offset that = reduces<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:black'>the correlation and can only be partially overcome = by using cross-correlation. Nonetheless,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:black'>it is = apparent that durations from 1 second upwards correlate well, while = going below one<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:black'>second leads to reliable IRs, but = ones that are inaccurate when compared with those = from<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:black'>longer sweep durations. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:black'>Our = surprising conclusion is that ~2s should be fine, but Farina refers to = an ISO standard that <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:black'>recommends very long sweeps (Farina = has an example of 50s) to help overcome noise.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:black'>This seems an = unintuitive rationale to us, since longer sweeps should increase both = the <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:black'>signal energy captured and the noise energy, and = the method does not involve averaging<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:black'>as far as I = understand. Longer durations should help address brief interupting = sounds, but <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:black'>I am unsure if that it what was the = idea. In the presence of continuous noise, we did not = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:black'>notice any improvement in the IRs produced by = longer sweeps.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:black'>The nascent = plan is to take >1 short sweep for each measurement and reject IRs = that<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:black'>that don't correlate well with = another.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:black'>Any = insights/advice appreciated,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:black'>John.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><table = class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 = style=3D'border-collapse:collapse'><tr><td width=3D301 valign=3Dtop = style=3D'width:225.4pt;border:solid #BFBFBF 1.0pt;border-right:solid = windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Prof. = John Culling</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>School = of Psychology, Cardiff University</span><o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif"'>Tel: +44 (0)29 2087 4556</span><o:p></o:p></p></td><td = width=3D301 valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:225.4pt;border:solid #BFBFBF = 1.0pt;border-left:none;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt'><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif"'>Yr Athro John Culling</span><o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif"'>Yr Ysgol Seicoleg, Prifysgol Caerdydd = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif"'>Ff=F4n : +44 (0)29 2087 = 4556</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New = Roman","serif";color:black'> </span><span lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = lang=3DEN-GB = style=3D'color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div= ></div></div></body></html> ------=_NextPart_002_0068_01D0C89C.7E7A6BF0-- ------=_NextPart_001_0067_01D0C89C.7E7A6BF0 Content-Type: image/png; name="image001.png" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <image001.png@xxxxxxxx> iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAMsAAADLCAIAAABPmfBkAAAAAXNSR0IArs4c6QAAAARnQU1BAACx 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