Subject: Re : Re: psychoacoustically driven temporal approximation From: "fmaintenant@xxxxxxxx" <fmaintenant@xxxxxxxx> Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 07:56:26 +0000 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>---745693771-16061311-1394178986=:54884 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bonjour=0A=0AI have never been a DSP wizard but cepstrum, wavelet and spect= ral centroid seemed a good idea. In any case using Kohonen maps to test via= AI the quality of models, it appeared to me that a pseudo inversion of spe= ctral data from a Fourier Transform was necessary to obtain a result compat= ible with mammal hearing.=0AIn anycase Amplitude somehow should be the nomb= er one dimension. The ability of the brain to distinguish and name isolated= frequencies is highy cultural and need specific training but energy relate= d pack of frequencies is vital for recognition. I don't believe time is so = important but resonance is.=0AAnyway this is a point of view of a composer = who happen also to be a mathematician with some ircam notions of acoustics.= =0A=0ABest=0A=0AFr=E9d=E9ric Maintenant=0Ahttp://penserlamusique.canalblog.= com=0A=0AEnvoy=E9 depuis Yahoo Mail pour Android=0A=0A ---745693771-16061311-1394178986=:54884 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0"><tr><td valign=3D"t= op"><p dir=3D"ltr">Bonjour</p>=0A<p dir=3D"ltr">I have never been a DSP wiz= ard but cepstrum, wavelet and spectral centroid seemed a good idea. In any = case using Kohonen maps to test via AI the quality of models, it appeared t= o me that a pseudo inversion of spectral data from a Fourier Transform was = necessary to obtain a result compatible with mammal hearing.<br>=0AIn anyca= se Amplitude somehow should be the nomber one dimension. The ability of the= brain to distinguish and name isolated frequencies is highy cultural and n= eed specific training but energy related pack of frequencies is vital for r= ecognition. I don't believe time is so important but resonance is.<br>=0AAn= yway this is a point of view of a composer who happen also to be a mathemat= ician with some ircam notions of acoustics.</p>=0A<p dir=3D"ltr">Best</p>= =0A<p dir=3D"ltr">Frédéric Maintenant<br>=0Ahttp://penserlamusiqu= e.canalblog.com<br></p>=0A<p dir=3D"ltr">Envoyé depuis Yahoo Mail pour= Android</p>=0A</td></tr></table> <div id=3D"_origMsg_">=0A = <div>=0A <br />=0A <div>= =0A <div style=3D"font-size:0.9em">=0A = <hr size=3D"1">=0A <b>=0A = <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From:</span>=0A = </b>=0A JesterN Alberto = Novello <jestern77@xxxxxxxx>; <br>=0A = <b>=0A <span style=3D= "font-weight:bold">To:</span>=0A </b>=0A = <AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx>; = = <br>=0A <b>=0A = <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span>=0A = </b>=0A Re: psychoacoustically driven tem= poral approximation <br>=0A = <b>=0A <span style=3D"font-weight:bol= d">Sent:</span>=0A </b>=0A = Thu, Mar 6, 2014 12:27:29 PM <br>=0A = </div>=0A <br>=0A = <table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0">=0A = <tbody>=0A = <tr>=0A <td valign=3D"top"><div st= yle=3D"color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetic= a Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"><div><= span>Hi All thanks for the help. I'm checking the sources but your sugg= estions already popped up an idea that i'm trying. Useful brainstorming= ;)</span></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13px;font-family= :HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-s= erif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">Thanks a lot</div><di= v style=3D"color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'He= lvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;background-col= or:transparent;font-style:normal;">Alberto</div><div></div><div> </div= ><div style=3D"color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans= -serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span class=3D"yiv1746729208Apple-style-span"=0A style=3D"border-collapse:separa= te;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:= normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:= 2;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spac= ing:0px;font-size:16px;"><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><font color=3D"#99= 9999"><font size=3D"2">|| | | ||| | || || | ||||| || | || | |||= | ||||| | | ||| | |||| | || ||||</font></font></font></span><span cl= ass=3D"yiv1746729208Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;col= or:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal= ;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text= -indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0p= x;font-size:16px;"><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><font color=3D"#999999">= <font size=3D"2"><font size=3D"2"><br><span=0A style=3D"font-size:10px;">&n= bsp;</span><br></font></font></font></font></span><span style=3D"font-weigh= t:bold;">ALBERTO NOVELLO / JesterN</span><br>site: <span style=3D"font-weig= ht:bold;">jestern.com</span><br>shop: <span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">jes= tern.bandcamp.com</span><br>audio: <span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">soundc= loud.com/jestern</span><br>video: <span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">vimeo.c= om/jestern</span><span class=3D"yiv1746729208Apple-style-span" style=3D"bor= der-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:n= ormal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-hei= ght:normal;orphans:2;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal= ;widows:2;word-spacing:0px;font-size:16px;"><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"= ><font color=3D"#999999"><span class=3D"yiv1746729208Apple-style-span" styl= e=3D"border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Helvetica;font= -style:normal;=0Afont-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norm= al;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s= pace:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0px;font-size:16px;"><font face=3D"Arial"= size=3D"2"><font color=3D"#999999"><font size=3D"2"><font size=3D"2"><font= size=3D"2"><span class=3D"yiv1746729208Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-c= ollapse:separate;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal= ;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:n= ormal;orphans:2;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wido= ws:2;word-spacing:0px;font-size:16px;"><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><fon= t color=3D"#999999"><font size=3D"2"><br><span style=3D"font-size:10px;">&n= bsp;</span><br>|| | | ||| | || || | ||||| || | || | ||| | |||||= | | ||| | |||| | || ||||</font></font></font></span><span class=3D"y= iv1746729208Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;=0Acolor:rg= b(0, 0, 0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font= -weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-inde= nt:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0px;fon= t-size:16px;"></span></font></font></font></font></font></span></font></fon= t></span><span class=3D"yiv1746729208Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-coll= apse:separate;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;fo= nt-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:norm= al;orphans:2;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:= 2;word-spacing:0px;font-size:16px;"><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><font c= olor=3D"#AAAAAA"><br><br></font></font></span></div><div style=3D"color:rgb= (0, 0, 0);font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;background-color:= transparent;font-style:normal;"><span style=3D"font-size:10px;">If for any = reason you wish=0A not to receive any more messages from this email, please= send an email with REMOVE as subject. I'm sorry for the inconvenience.= <br></span></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13px;font-fami= ly:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-st= yle:normal;"><span style=3D"font-size:x-small;">Se per qualsiasi ragione no= n desideri ricevere piu' messaggi da questo indirizzo, mandami un messa= ggio con REMOVE nel soggetto. Mi scuso per il disturbo.</span><br></div><di= v class=3D"yahoo_quoted" style=3D"display:block;"> <br> <br> <div style=3D"= font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Gran= de', sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family:HelveticaNeue, = 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size:1= 2pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"> Il Gioved=EC 6 Ma= rzo 2014 6:47, Richard F. Lyon <dicklyon@xxxxxxxx> ha scritto:<br> </f= ont> </div> <div=0A class=3D"y_msg_container"><div id=3D"yiv9729100209"><d= iv dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Alberto, the question is not clear. When you= say "in the time domain" do you mean you are looking for alterna= tives to the widely used perceptual audio coders that use filterbanks? = ; <br><br>=0AIf "<span>a spectral-weighted temporal approximation meth= od" is what you want, don't try to "</span><span>connect freq= uency components </span><span style=3D"background-color:transparent;">= to specific samples in the time domain". Frequency components ar= e not a relevant concept in the time domain. <br>=0A<br></span></div>= <span style=3D"background-color:transparent;">Possibly what you want is som= ething like LPC whitening with residual coding. See for example:</spa= n><br><span style=3D"color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:Arial, sans-serif;fo= nt-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;lette= r-spacing:normal;line-height:16.12px;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh= ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);float= :none;display:inline;">Singhal, Sharad. "High quality audio coding usi= ng multipulse LPC."<span class=3D"yiv9729100209"> </span></span><i sty= le=3D"color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;fo= nt-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:16.1= 2px;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px= ;background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);">ICASSP</i><span style=3D"color:rgb(3= 4, 34,=0A 34);font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:norma= l;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:= 16.12px;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing= :0px;background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);float:none;display:inline;">, 1990= .<br>=0A<br></span></div><span style=3D"color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:A= rial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-= weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:16.12px;text-indent:0px;tex= t-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(2= 55, 255, 255);float:none;display:inline;">Dick<br>=0A<br></span></div><div = class=3D"yiv9729100209gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"yiv9729100209gmail= _quote">On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 3:05 AM, JesterN Alberto Novello <span dir= =3D"ltr"><<a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:jestern77@xxxxxxxx" targ= et=3D"_blank" href=3D"javascript:return">jestern77@xxxxxxxx</a>></span> = wrote:<br>=0A<blockquote class=3D"yiv9729100209gmail_quote" style=3D"margin= :0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div><div style= =3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, = Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;"><div>=0A<span>Hi all,</span></div><div= style=3D"font-style:normal;font-size:13px;background-color:transparent;fon= t-family:HelveticaNeue,;"><span>i'm trying to find a way to approximate= the sample values of an audio waveform in time domain.</span></div>=0A<div= style=3D"font-style:normal;font-size:13px;background-color:transparent;fon= t-family:HelveticaNeue,;"><span>I want a method that takes care of approxim= ating perceptually-relevant audio bands better than others.</span></div>=0A= <div style=3D"font-style:normal;font-size:13px;background-color:transparent= ;font-family:HelveticaNeue,;"><span>Basically a spectral-weighted temporal = approximation method. </span></div>=0A<div style=3D"font-style:normal;= font-size:13px;background-color:transparent;font-family:HelveticaNeue,;"><s= pan>In my head it's not clear how to connect frequency components = </span><span style=3D"background-color:transparent;">to specific samples in= the time domain. </span></div>=0A<div style=3D"font-style:normal;font= -size:13px;background-color:transparent;font-family:HelveticaNeue,;"><span>= Any DSP wizard out there with a good idea/papers ?</span></div>=0A<div></di= v><div>Best regards</div><div>Alberto </div><div><br></div><div style= =3D"font-style:normal;background-color:transparent;font-family:arial, helve= tica, clean, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:nor= mal;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:no= rmal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:16px;white-spac= e:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px;"><font face=3D"Arial"><fon= t color=3D"#999999"><font>|| | | ||| | || || | ||||| || | || | = ||| | ||||| | | ||| | |||| | || ||||</font></font></font></span><span= style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;font-st= yle:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;t= ext-transform:none;font-size:16px;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;= word-spacing:0px;"><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#999999"><font><font= ><br>=0A<span style=3D"font-size:10px;"> </span><br></font></font></fo= nt></font></span><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">ALBERTO NOVELLO / Jester= N</span><br>site: <span style=3D"font-weight:bold;"><a rel=3D"nofollow" tar= get=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://jestern.com/">jestern.com</a></span><br>=0Ash= op: <span style=3D"font-weight:bold;"><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank"= href=3D"http://jestern.bandcamp.com/">jestern.bandcamp.com</a></span><br>a= udio: <span style=3D"font-weight:bold;"><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blan= k" href=3D"http://soundcloud.com/jestern">soundcloud.com/jestern</a></span>= <br>=0Avideo: <span style=3D"font-weight:bold;"><a rel=3D"nofollow" target= =3D"_blank" href=3D"http://vimeo.com/jestern">vimeo.com/jestern</a></span><= span style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;fon= t-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separa= te;text-transform:none;font-size:16px;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvet= ica;word-spacing:0px;"><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#999999"><span s= tyle=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;font-styl= e:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;tex= t-transform:none;font-size:16px;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;wo= rd-spacing:0px;"><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#999999"><font><font><= font><span style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;font-st= yle:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;t= ext-transform:none;font-size:16px;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;= word-spacing:0px;"><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#999999"><font><br>= =0A<span style=3D"font-size:10px;"> </span><br>|| | | ||| | ||&n= bsp; || | ||||| || | || | ||| | ||||| | | ||| | |||| | || ||||</font>= </font></font></span><span style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;f= ont-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;= border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:16px;white-space:nor= mal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px;"></span></font></font></font></= font></font></span></font></font></span><span style=3D"text-indent:0px;lett= er-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;= line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:1= 6px;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px;"><font face= =3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#AAAAAA"><br>=0A<br></font></font></span></div><d= iv style=3D"font-style:normal;background-color:transparent;font-family:aria= l, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size:10px;">If for an= y reason you wish not to receive any more messages from this email, please = send an email with REMOVE as subject. I'm sorry for the inconvenience. = <br>=0A</span></div><div style=3D"font-style:normal;font-size:13px;backgrou= nd-color:transparent;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;"><spa= n style=3D"font-size:x-small;">Se per qualsiasi ragione non desideri riceve= re piu' messaggi da questo indirizzo, mandami un messaggio con REMOVE n= el soggetto. Mi scuso per il disturbo.</span><br>=0A</div></div></div></blo= ckquote></div><br></div></div><br><br></div> </div> </div> </div> </div><= /td>=0A </tr>=0A = </tbody>=0A </table>=0A = </div>=0A </div>=0A </div>=0A ---745693771-16061311-1394178986=:54884--