Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] PESQ and other speech quality algorithms From: Graham Rousell <gr@xxxxxxxx> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 13:13:18 +0000 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>--_000_9E0327C52A10604DAEB601B97C8A1F5723E31597SBSopticomde_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Christine, Thank you for your feedback. It's certainly a mistake that is often made, but the differentiation must b= e made between free access to ITU information, given the constraints the IT= U apply of no reproduction or utilization in any form, without permission i= n writing from the ITU, and possible copyright and patent infringement res= ulting from the use of that information. Potential users should in the fir= st instance go to the ITU-T website to review the recommendation, which sho= uld include a statement regarding potential Intellectual Property Rights. I believe there is nothing stopping any organisation (commercial or non-com= mercial) with an interest to develop algorithms from attending the ITU meet= ings personally or through their national co-ordination group, and thereby = compete with the proponents presented, possibly even with the aim of provid= ing copyright and patent free tools. That said it takes a lot of time and = investment to be able to do this (travel alone!), which needs to be recover= ed from somewhere and then ploughed back into maintenance and future develo= pments. That is why OPTICOM can act both as the shop front for these tools= as well as a developer, to ensure that the collected royalties from commer= cial use can be distributed to the rightful contributors. Best regards, Graham Graham Rousell Business Development Tel: +49 9131 5302022 ____________________________________________________________ O P T I C O M - The Perceptual Quality Experts. ____________________________________________________________ OPTICOM Dipl.-Ing. M. Keyhl GmbH Naegelsbachstrasse 38, D-91052 Erlangen, GERMANY Phone: +49 9131 53020-0, Fax: +49 9131 53020-20 info@xxxxxxxx<mailto:info@xxxxxxxx> www.opticom.de<http://www.= opticom.de/> Sitz der Gesellschaft: Erlangen; Amtsgericht Fuerth, HRB 7169 Geschaeftsfuehrer: Michael Keyhl, Christian Schmidmer From: Christine Rankovic [mailto:rankovic@xxxxxxxx Sent: 26 July 2013 13:29 To: Graham Rousell; AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx Subject: RE: PESQ and other speech quality algorithms Dear Graham: Thank you for addressing this. Somehow I had the idea that because the ITU= is a United Nations agency, its work is freely available to all, or at lea= st to those countries having UN membership. Christine Rankovic -----Original Message----- From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception [mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= ILL.CA] On Behalf Of Graham Paul Rousell Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 1:01 PM To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx<mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: PESQ and other speech quality algorithms Dear Nicolas, Thank you for your very detailed and precise response. My apologies for no= t being able to come in earlier on these posts. Yes, in summary, publication within a book of previously copyrighted material is itself an infringement of copyright, and then the fact that patents may be incorporated within that is further infringement. If the code within Loizou's Speech Enhancement book does not use the same code or patents then this might not be an infringement (other than trade name). I would hope so since to the best of our knowledge Mathworks don't have a license agreement to be able to publish or distribute PESQ. Regardless of source or application it is everyone's liability to care about third parties' intellectual property rights, whether they are patents, copyrights or trademarks. There are various examples that could be considered, but probably that of pharmaceutical R&D is most analogous here. Papers are published all the time of copyrighted and patented material, but it is very well understood that those developments are strongly defended if there is ever indication of infringement. Once again, I will say that the offer is there, to use a fully conformant time limited version of PESQ, for qualified academic purposes, on application from OPTICOM. Best regards, Graham Graham Rousell Business Development Tel: +49 9131 5302022 ____________________________________________________________ O P T I C O M - The Perceptual Quality Experts. ____________________________________________________________ OPTICOM Dipl.-Ing. M. Keyhl GmbH Naegelsbachstrasse 38, D-91052 Erlangen, GERMANY Phone: +49 9131 53020-0, Fax: +49 9131 53020-20 info@xxxxxxxx<mailto:info@xxxxxxxx> www.opticom.de<http://www.= opticom.de> --_000_9E0327C52A10604DAEB601B97C8A1F5723E31597SBSopticomde_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micr= osoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:= //www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"= > <meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 14 (filtered medium)"> <style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @xxxxxxxx {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @xxxxxxxx {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @xxxxxxxx {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} @xxxxxxxx {font-family:Consolas; panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} p.MsoPlainText, li.MsoPlainText, div.MsoPlainText {mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-link:"Plain Text Char"; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:10.5pt; font-family:Consolas;} p.MsoAcetate, li.MsoAcetate, div.MsoAcetate {mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-link:"Balloon Text Char"; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:8.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";} span.PlainTextChar {mso-style-name:"Plain Text Char"; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-link:"Plain Text"; font-family:Consolas;} span.BalloonTextChar {mso-style-name:"Balloon Text Char"; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-link:"Balloon Text"; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";} span.EmailStyle21 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:blue; font-weight:normal; font-style:normal;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-size:10.0pt;} @xxxxxxxx WordSection1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} --></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> </head> <body lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"> <div class=3D"WordSection1"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:blue">Hi Christine,<o:p></o:p><= /span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:blue"><o:p> </o:p></span><= /p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:blue">Thank you for your feedba= ck.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:blue"><o:p> </o:p></span><= /p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:blue">It’s certainly a mi= stake that is often made, but the differentiation must be made between free= access to ITU information, given the constraints the ITU apply of no repro= duction or utilization in any form, without permission in writing from the ITU, and possible copyright and paten= t infringement resulting from the use of that information. Potential = users should in the first instance go to the ITU-T website to review the re= commendation, which should include a statement regarding potential Intellectual Property Rights.<o:p></o:p></span><= /p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:blue"><o:p> </o:p></span><= /p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:blue">I believe there is nothin= g stopping any organisation (commercial or non-commercial) with an interest= to develop algorithms from attending the ITU meetings personally or throug= h their national co-ordination group, and thereby compete with the proponents presented, possibly even with the = aim of providing copyright and patent free tools. That said it takes = a lot of time and investment to be able to do this (travel alone!), which n= eeds to be recovered from somewhere and then ploughed back into maintenance and future developments. That is= why OPTICOM can act both as the shop front for these tools as well as a de= veloper, to ensure that the collected royalties from commercial use can be = distributed to the rightful contributors.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:blue"><o:p> </o:p></span><= /p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:blue">Best regards,<o:p></o:p><= /span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:blue"><o:p> </o:p></span><= /p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:blue">Graham<o:p></o:p></span><= /p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:blue"><o:p> </o:p></span><= /p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:blue"><o:p> </o:p></span><= /p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:blue"><o:p> </o:p></span><= /p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:blue">Graham R= ousell<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:blue">Business= Development<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:blue"><o:p>&nb= sp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:blue">Tel: = 3;49 9131 5302022</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"C= ourier New";color:blue"><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Co= urier New";color:blue">_______________________________________________= _____________<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Co= urier New";color:blue"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Co= urier New";color:blue">O P T I C O M - &n= bsp; The Perceptual Quality Experts.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Co= urier New";color:blue">_______________________________________________= _____________<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Co= urier New";color:blue"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Co= urier New";color:blue"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Co= urier New";color:blue">OPTICOM Dipl.-Ing. M. Keyhl GmbH<o:p></o:p></sp= an></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Co= urier New";color:blue">Naegelsbachstrasse 38, D-91052 Erlangen, GERMAN= Y<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Co= urier New";color:blue">Phone: +49 9131 53020-0, Fax: +49 9131 = 53020-20<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Co= urier New";color:blue"><a href=3D"mailto:info@xxxxxxxx"><span style= =3D"text-decoration:none">info@xxxxxxxx</span></a>  = ; <a href=3D"http://www.opticom.de/"><span style=3D"text-decoration:none">www= .opticom.de</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Co= urier New";color:blue"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Co= urier New";color:blue">Sitz der Gesellschaft: Erlangen; Amtsgericht Fu= erth, HRB 7169<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Co= urier New";color:blue">Geschaeftsfuehrer: Michael Keyhl, Christian Sch= midmer<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:blue"><o:p> </o:p></span><= /p> <div> <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm = 0cm 0cm"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo= nt-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span = lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",&qu= ot;sans-serif""> Christine Rankovic [mailto:rankovic@xxxxxxxx <br> <b>Sent:</b> 26 July 2013 13:29<br> <b>To:</b> Graham Rousell; AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx<br> <b>Subject:</b> RE: PESQ and other speech quality algorithms<o:p></o:p></sp= an></p> </div> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Dear Graham:<o:p></o:p></spa= n></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thank you for addressing thi= s. Somehow I had the idea that because the ITU is a United Nations ag= ency, its work is freely available to all, or at least to those countries h= aving UN membership.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Christine Rankovic<o:p></o:p= ></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">-----Original Message-----<b= r> From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception [<a href=3D"mailto:AUDITOR= Y@xxxxxxxx">mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a>] On Behalf Of Graham= Paul Rousell<br> Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 1:01 PM<br> To: <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a= ><br> Subject: Re: PESQ and other speech quality algorithms<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Dear Nicolas,<o:p></o:p></sp= an></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thank you for your very deta= iled and precise response. My apologies for not being able to come in= earlier on these posts.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Yes, in summary, publication= within a book of previously copyrighted <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">material is itself an infrin= gement of copyright, and then the fact that <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">patents may be incorporated = within that is further infringement. If the <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">code within Loizou's Speech = Enhancement book does not use the same code or <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">patents then this might not = be an infringement (other than trade name). I <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">would hope so since to the b= est of our knowledge Mathworks don't have a <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">license agreement to be able= to publish or distribute PESQ. <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regardless of source or appl= ication it is everyone's liability to care <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">about third parties' intelle= ctual property rights, whether they are <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">patents, copyrights or trade= marks.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">There are various examples t= hat could be considered, but probably that of <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">pharmaceutical R&D is mo= st analogous here. Papers are published all the <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">time of copyrighted and pate= nted material, but it is very well understood <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">that those developments are = strongly defended if there is ever indication <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">of infringement.<o:p></o:p><= /span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Once again, I will say that = the offer is there, to use a fully conformant <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">time limited version of PESQ= , for qualified academic purposes, on <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">application from OPTICOM. <o= :p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></sp= an></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Graham<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Graham Rousell<o:p></o:p></s= pan></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Business Development<o:p></o= :p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Tel: +49 9131 5302022<o:= p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">____________________________= ________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">O P T I C O M &nb= sp; - The Perceptual Quality Experts.<o:p></o:p></span></= p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">____________________________= ________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">OPTICOM Dipl.-Ing. M. Keyhl = GmbH<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Naegelsbachstrasse 38, D-910= 52 Erlangen, GERMANY<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Phone: +49 9131 53020-0,= Fax: +49 9131 53020-20<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"mailto:info@xxxxxxxx= om.de"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">info@xxxxxxxx= e</span></a> <a href=3D"http://www.opticom.de"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-deco= ration:none">www.opticom.de</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </body> </html> --_000_9E0327C52A10604DAEB601B97C8A1F5723E31597SBSopticomde_--