Subject: Re: [AUDITORY] Perceptual basis of evolving western musical styles From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Pablo_Hern=E1n_Rodriguez_Zivic?= <=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Pablo_Hern=E1n_Rodriguez_Zivic?=> Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2013 13:35:06 -0300 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>--047d7b450c206efb7604de2e6f8d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Pierre, I'm glad to be able to write to you, and somehow feel how your effort in collecting the data helped me understand what I was doing this last year. Regarding your observation on the analysis, I totally agree that the analysis is very incomplete, both in the dataset and the features. This was mainly driven by the fact that we were unable to collect neither more data nor richer. However, the fact that these simple statistics provide such an insight is a surprising fact for itself. I usually explain this result to myself with the following analogy. If we wanted to distinguish between styles in paintings, and counted the amount of strokes and their width, we should probably be able to separate impressionist paintings from renaissance ones. This doesn't mean that those features define what the impresionist paintings are, they are just convinient statistics that we compute using our a-priori knowledge. Nevertheless, we are now working in a follow up paper (already with some preliminary results) trying to overcome some of limitations you pointed out= . Best, Pablo On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Pierre Divenyi < pdivenyi@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > I read Pablo's PNAS paper with great interest and some nostalgia: in the > late 1960s Jack Taylor and I were James Carlsen's research assistants > involved in collecting and analyzing the melodic expectancy data he > published in 1981. Pablo's paper opens a whole territory and incites > discussion of his findings and his model. Frederic was the first to start > this discussion and I hope it will go on for a while =97 I am especially > interested in hearing from Dave Huron! > > My first reaction is that, as wonderful as the findings are, they are the > fruit of a very incomplete analysis. In particular, I would like to see a > subsequent combing through the database consider two temporal factors: (1= ) > the place of a note in the metric framework (measures and N-measure > thematic chunks) and (2) the influence of tempo. With respect to the > latter, it is clear that in the Baroque era alone a voice often carries a > hidden polyphony, i.e., breaks down into two melodic streams, and such > breakdown is a function of the tempo, as Leon can Noorden showed. With > respect to (1), the expectations Meyer was talking about are very much > dependent on where in the N-measure chunk (N>=3D1) the implied continuati= on > takes place. > > > On 5/30/13 10:59 AM, "Pablo Hern=E1n Rodriguez Zivic" <elsonidoq@xxxxxxxx= M> > wrote: > > Dear Fr=E9d=E9ric, > > I appreciate you comments and suggested bibliography. I will certainly > consider them for my next publication > > Sincerely, > > Pablo > > > On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 5:50 AM, fr=E9d=E9ric maintenant <fmaintenant@xxxxxxxx= oo.fr > > wrote: > >> This is a very intersting subject, and the abstract makes me want to rea= d >> more.. but there is a massive draw back, how can you mention in your tit= le >> western musical style and not mention anything about popular music, jazz >> and contemporary music? I can read that in fact you are just interested = by >> melody. That's all right, but not mentioned in your title. Do you know t= hat >> Hugues Dufourt, Costin Miereanu, Salvatore Sciarrino are specifically >> working on the transformation of western melody particularly using jazz >> standard. Beside, Kaija Saariaho has developped a very specific approach= to >> melody. And I am not mentioning obviously the work of Wayne Shorter who = has >> to my opinion push the idea of popular melody very far etc etc >> It is time not to work on Commercial period of classical music. I >> remember this beautiful article on Density 21.5 by Marc Leman... this wa= s >> to my opinion where research should have gone... unfortunatly like for m= any >> others money business has oriented his research... to help Google !! >> But anyway, nice to see that music is not forgotten on the Auditory List= . >> >> Best, >> >> Fr=E9d=E9ric Maintenant >> CNRS/Panth=E9on-Sorbonne >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *De :* Pablo Hern=E1n Rodriguez Zivic <elsonidoq@xxxxxxxx> >> *=C0 :* AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx >> *Envoy=E9 le :* Jeudi 30 mai 2013 1h01 >> *Objet :* Perceptual basis of evolving western musical styles >> >> Dear List, >> >> I hereby announce my first "Open Access" paper "Perceptual basis of >> evolving western musical styles" which appears in the *Proceedings of >> the National Academy of Sciences* >> * >> * >> http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/05/22/1222336110 >> >> Thanks for your attention. >> >> Pablo >> -- >> http://pablozivic.com.ar/ >> >> >> > > > -- > http://pablozivic.com.ar/ > --=20 http://pablozivic.com.ar/ --047d7b450c206efb7604de2e6f8d Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">Dear Pierre,=A0<div><br></div><div style>I'm glad to b= e able to write to you, and somehow feel how your effort in collecting the = data helped me understand what I was doing this last year.</div><div style>= =A0 =A0</div> <div style>Regarding your observation on the analysis, I totally agree that= the analysis is very incomplete, both in the dataset and the features. Thi= s was mainly driven by the fact that we were unable to collect neither more= data nor richer. However, the fact that these simple statistics provide su= ch an insight is a surprising fact for itself.=A0</div> <div style><br></div><div style>I usually explain this result to myself wit= h the following analogy. If we wanted to distinguish between styles in pain= tings, and counted the amount of strokes and their width, we should probabl= y be able to separate impressionist paintings from renaissance ones. This d= oesn't mean that those features define what the impresionist paintings = are, they are just convinient statistics that we compute using our a-priori= knowledge.</div> <div style><br></div><div style>Nevertheless, we are now working in a follo= w up paper (already with some preliminary results) trying to overcome some = of limitations you pointed out.</div><div style><br></div><div style>Best,<= /div> <div style><br></div><div style>Pablo</div><div><br></div></div><div class= =3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, May 31, 2013 at= 12:52 PM, Pierre Divenyi <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:pdivenyi@xxxxxxxx= ccrma.stanford.edu" target=3D"_blank">pdivenyi@xxxxxxxx</a>></= span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"font-size:16px;font-family:Cal= ibri,sans-serif;word-wrap:break-word"><div>I read Pablo's PNAS paper wi= th great interest and some nostalgia: in the late 1960s Jack Taylor and I w= ere James Carlsen's research assistants involved in collecting and anal= yzing the melodic expectancy data he published in 1981. Pablo's paper o= pens a whole territory and incites discussion of his findings and his model= . Frederic was the first to start this discussion and I hope it will go on = for a while =97 I am especially interested in hearing from Dave Huron!</div= > <div><br></div><div>My first reaction is that, as wonderful as the findings= are, they are the fruit of a very incomplete analysis. In particular, I wo= uld like to see a subsequent combing through the database consider two temp= oral factors: (1) the place of a note in the metric framework (measures and= N-measure thematic chunks) and (2) the influence of tempo. With respect to= the latter, it is clear that in the Baroque era alone a voice often carrie= s a hidden polyphony, i.e., breaks down into two melodic streams, and such = breakdown is a function of the tempo, as Leon can Noorden showed. With resp= ect to (1), the expectations Meyer was talking about are very much dependen= t on where in the N-measure chunk (N>=3D1) the implied continuation take= s place.</div> <div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br></div><div><br></div><span><div><div>On 5/3= 0/13 10:59 AM, "Pablo Hern=E1n Rodriguez Zivic" <<a href=3D"ma= ilto:elsonidoq@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">elsonidoq@xxxxxxxx</a>> wro= te:</div> </div><div><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Dear=A0Fr=E9d=E9ric,<div><br></div><d= iv>=A0 =A0I appreciate you comments and suggested bibliography. I will cert= ainly consider them for my next publication</div><div><br></div><div>Sincer= ely,</div> <div><br></div><div>Pablo</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div clas= s=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 5:50 AM, fr=E9d=E9ric maintenant = <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:fmaintenant@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_bl= ank">fmaintenant@xxxxxxxx</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-famil= y:Courier New,courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">This is a very interstin= g subject, and the abstract makes me want to read more.. but there is a mas= sive draw back, how can you mention in your title western musical style and= not mention anything about popular music, jazz and contemporary music? I c= an read that in fact you are just interested by melody. That's all righ= t, but not mentioned in your title. Do you know that Hugues Dufourt, Costin= Miereanu, Salvatore Sciarrino<span style=3D"font-style:italic"> </span><sp= an>are specifically working on the transformation of western melody particu= larly using jazz standard. Beside, Kaija Saariaho has developped a very spe= cific approach to melody. And I am not mentioning obviously the work of Way= ne Shorter who has to my opinion push the idea of popular melody very far e= tc etc <br> It is time not to work on Commercial period of classical music. I remember this beautiful article on Density 21.5 by Marc= Leman... this was to my opinion where research should have gone... unfortu= natly like for many others money business has oriented his research... to h= elp Google !!<br> But anyway, nice to see that music is not forgotten on the Auditory List.<b= r><br>Best,<br><br>Fr=E9d=E9ric Maintenant<br>CNRS/Panth=E9on-Sorbonne<br><= /span><div><span><br></span></div><div><br></div> <div style=3D"font-famil= y:Courier New,courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"> <div style=3D"font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:1= 2pt"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1"> <font face=3D"Arial"> <b><span sty= le=3D"font-weight:bold">De=A0:</span></b> Pablo Hern=E1n Rodriguez Zivic &l= t;<a href=3D"mailto:elsonidoq@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">elsonidoq@xxxxxxxx= COM</a>><br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">=C0=A0:</span></b> <a href=3D"mailto:A= UDITORY@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a> <br= > <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Envoy=E9 le :</span></b> Jeudi 30 mai= 2013 1h01<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Objet=A0:</span></b> Perceptu= al basis of evolving western musical styles<br> </font> </div><div><div> <d= iv><br><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Dear List,<div><br></div><div>=A0 =A0I hereby = announce my first "Open Access" paper "Perceptual basis of e= volving western musical styles" which appears in the <i>Proceedings of= the National Academy of Sciences</i></div> <div><i><br></i></div><div><a rel=3D"nofollow" href=3D"http://www.pnas.org/= content/early/2013/05/22/1222336110" target=3D"_blank">http://www.pnas.org/= content/early/2013/05/22/1222336110</a></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for= your attention.=A0</div> <div><br></div><div>Pablo<br>-- <br><a rel=3D"nofollow" href=3D"http://pabl= ozivic.com.ar/" target=3D"_blank">http://pablozivic.com.ar/</a></div></div>= </div><br><br></div> </div></div></div> </div> </div></div></blockquote></= div> <br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><a href=3D"http://pablozivic.co= m.ar/" target=3D"_blank">http://pablozivic.com.ar/</a></div></div></span></= div></div></div> </blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><a href=3D"h= ttp://pablozivic.com.ar/" target=3D"_blank">http://pablozivic.com.ar/</a> </div> --047d7b450c206efb7604de2e6f8d--