Subject: Re: Human hearing beats the Fourier uncertainty principle: Research From: Pierre Divenyi <pdivenyi@xxxxxxxx> Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 09:12:17 -0800 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3444369143_10805923 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Let me call to the list's attention two old JASA articles the respective authors of which showed that the uncertainty principle applies to audition. Sekey, A. (1963). "Short-Term Auditory Frequency Discrimination", JASA 35/5, 682-690. Ronken, D.A. (1971). "Some effects of bandwidth-duration constraints on frequency discrimination", JASA 49/4(2), 1232-1242. -Pierre On 2/21/13 8:33 AM, "corey" <coreyker@xxxxxxxx> wrote: I do think this article is misleading. In my opinion the uncertainty principle is not something to be "overcome". It simply relates the bandwidth of a waveform to its duration (which is an unassailable fact). In Fourier theory frequency is defined for periodic signals (which are of infinite duration). Any finite duration signal can be viewed equally as an infinite duration periodic signal that has been multiplied by a finite duration window. It is this windowing process that introduces a spread of frequencies (after all the window is a waveform too). It is thus not physically possible to create stimuli that "beat" the uncertainty principle, which seems to negate the conclusions in the remainder of the article. On 2013-02-20, at 10:27 AM, James Johnston wrote: > Well, yes. Of course, and the FFT is not a minimum-phase filter, while the ear > is very close to such. Well, there goes a large speed factor already, eh? --B_3444369143_10805923 Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable <html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: s= pace; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><div sty= le=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Let me call to the = list's attention two old JASA articles the respective authors of which showe= d that the uncertainty principle applies to audition.</div><div>Sekey, A. (1= 963). "Short-Term Auditory Frequency Discrimination", JASA 35/5, 682-690.</d= iv><div>Ronken, D.A. (1971). "Some effects of bandwidth-duration constraints= on frequency discrimination", JASA 49/4(2), 1232-1242.</div><div><br></div>= <div>-Pierre</div><div style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-se= rif; "><br></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font-size: 14px; fon= t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><div><div>On 2/21/13 8:33 AM, "corey" <<= a href=3D"mailto:coreyker@xxxxxxxx">coreyker@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:</div></= div><div><br></div><div><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode= : space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I do think this article is= misleading. In my opinion the uncertainty principle is not something = to be "overcome". It simply relates the bandwidth of a waveform to its= duration (which is an unassailable fact). In Fourier theory frequency= is defined for periodic signals (which are of infinite duration). Any= finite duration signal can be viewed equally as an infinite duration period= ic signal that has been multiplied by a finite duration window. It is = this windowing process that introduces a spread of frequencies (after all th= e window is a waveform too). It is thus not physically possible to cre= ate stimuli that "beat" the uncertainty principle, which seems to negate the= conclusions in the remainder of the article.<div><br><div><div>On 2013-02-2= 0, at 10:27 AM, James Johnston wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newl= ine"><blockquote type=3D"cite">Well, yes. Of course, and the FFT is not a mini= mum-phase filter, while the ear is very close to such. Well, there goes a la= rge speed factor already, eh? <br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div><= /span></body></html> --B_3444369143_10805923--