Re: The climb of absolute pitch (Mitchell Cotter )

Subject: Re: The climb of absolute pitch From: Mitchell Cotter <mcotter7@xxxxxxxx> Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 09:25:38 -0500 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY> --90e6ba10ad29aca91904d01bc1f4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 To all on AUDITORY list. Jim Fulton papers on Hearing can be found on his web site http://www.neuronresearch.net/hearing/ He was a VP at the old Hughes research "skunk works" and is very well grounded scientist. He should be a considered a serious scientist. Hence my comment on the AUDITORY list. Mitchell Cotter On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 3:59 AM, Leon van Noorden <leonvannoorden@xxxxxxxx>wrote: > The only suggestion I have on this that in speech (at least in Dutch) > the - un-accented - pitch goes gradually down during a sentence. > Listeners are usually not aware of this. > Against this background a rise of 100 cents is more of a signal dan going > down 100 cents. > That AP have a stronger effect could indicate that they have a stronger > connection > to the pitch of their voice, which is proposed in some theories. > > Regards, > Leon > > On 04 Dec 2012, at 23:38, Chuck Larson wrote: > > > To all of you experts on absolute pitch, I have a question for you. > > > > I've been following your discussion on AP musicians in hopes that I would > > learn something from you that would explain some of our EEG results. We > > have tested musicians with absolute pitch and relative pitch on a > > vocalization experiment in which they heard their voice (through > > headphones) either shift up 100 cents or down 100 cents. The shifting > was > > done with a harmonizer. We also recorded ERPs triggered by the onset of > > the pitch-shift stimulus. In general the musicians with AP had larger > > magnitude left hemisphere potentials (P200) than did the relative pitch > > musicians. However, we also noted that for the UPWARD pitch-shift > > stimulus, the P200 in the AP musicians, in contrast to the RP musicians, > > was more strongly left lateralized than for DOWNWARD pitch shifts. I am > > trying to figure out why an upward shift in voice pitch auditory feedback > > in AP musicians would show stronger left hemisphere activation than a > > downward pitch shift. > > > > I'D greatly appreciate any ideas you may have on this. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > > > Chuck Larson > > Dept. of Communication Sciences and Disorders > > Room 3-348 > > 2240 Campus Dr. > > Northwestern University > > Evanston, IL 60208 > > Phone: 847-491-2424 > > Cell: 847-830-5432 > > Fax: 847-491-4975 > > email: clarson@xxxxxxxx > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/3/12 7:38 PM, "Kevin Austin" <kevin.austin@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > >> Thanks. > >> > >> I had been led to believe that frequency was encoded along the BM, and > >> that pitch was the interpretation of this stimulus. > >> > >> Kevin > >> > >> > >> > >> On 2012, Dec 2, at 8:47 AM, Bob Masta wrote: > >> > >>> Can someone explain the supposed mechanism behind neural timing and > >>> pitch shift? I don't understand what is being proposed. As I > >>> undestand it, since pitch is encoded as *place* along the BM, the > >>> neurons respond with a firing rate that encodes *loudness* for their > >>> particular frequency place. The firing rate does not encode the > >>> frequency of the sound itself. > >>> > >>> What am I missing here? > >>> > >>> Best regards, > >>> > >>> Bob Masta > >>> > >>> ============= > >>> On 1 Dec 2012 at 9:50, Pierre Divenyi wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi Oded, > >>>> > >>>> Your three-step reasoning makes sense but, indeed, it should be > >>>> experimentally verified. As to the age-related change of neural > >>>> oscillations, Art Wingfield believes that the brain "slows down" as we > >>>> get > >>>> older. Such a slowing-down could also explain the upward AP shift > >>>> because > >>>> our reference would shift downward. How this central effect squares > >>>> with the > >>>> peripheral, BM-stiffening effect is unknown but, again, could be > >>>> studied in > >>>> the lab. > >>>> > >>>> -Pierre > >>>> > >>>> On 12/1/12 5:17 AM, "Oded Ghitza" <oghitza@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Hi Pierre, > >>>> If (1) you accept Julius's model of pitch perception, (2) interpret -- > >>>> as he > >>>> did -- the central component of the model as a mechanism that adjusts > >>>> f0 of > >>>> an internal harmonic sieve to the point where the MMSE between the > >>>> sieve and > >>>> the input pattern is minimum, and (3) assume that such mechanism is > >>>> realized > >>>> by a neuronal circuitry with oscillations ("rhythms") at the core > >>>> (maybe > >>>> related to Langer, in the late 80's and in the context of pitch > >>>> perception, > >>>> who measured "temporal rings" in chicks); then, a possible way to > >>>> examine > >>>> the phenomenon (whether perceived pitch should go up or down, in > >>>> particular), is to look at how the frequency range of neuronal > >>>> oscillations > >>>> change with age. > >>>> -- > >>>> Oded. > >>>> > >>> Bob Masta > >>> > >>> D A Q A R T A > >>> Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis > >>> www.daqarta.com > >>> Scope, Spectrum, Spectrogram, Signal Generator > >>> Science with your sound card! > --90e6ba10ad29aca91904d01bc1f4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To all on AUDITORY list.<div>Jim Fulton papers on Hearing =A0can be found o= n his web site</div><div><a href=3D"http://www.neuronresearch.net/hearing/"= >http://www.neuronresearch.net/hearing/</a></div><div>He was a VP at the ol= d Hughes research "skunk works" and is very well grounded</div> <div>scientist. =A0He should be a considered a serious scientist.</div><div= > </div><div>Hence my comment on the AUDITORY list.</div><div> </div>= <div>Mitchell Cotter <div> </div><div> <div class=3D"gmail_quo= te"> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 3:59 AM, Leon van Noorden <<a h= ref=3D"mailto:leonvannoorden@xxxxxxxx" target=3D"_blank">leonvannoorden@xxxxxxxx= com</a>> wrote: <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar= gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> The only suggestion I have on this that in speech (at least in Dutch) the - un-accented - pitch goes gradually down during a sentence. Listeners are usually not aware of this. Against this background a rise of 100 cents is more of a signal dan going d= own 100 cents. That AP have a stronger effect could indicate that they have a stronger con= nection to the pitch of their voice, which is proposed in some theories. Regards, Leon On 04 Dec 2012, at 23:38, Chuck Larson wrote: > To all of you experts on absolute pitch, I have a question for you.<br= > > > I've been following your discussion on AP musicians in hopes that = I would > learn something from you that would explain some of our EEG results. W= e > have tested musicians with absolute pitch and relative pitch on a > vocalization experiment in which they heard their voice (through > headphones) either shift up 100 cents or down 100 cents. =A0The shifti= ng was > done with a harmonizer. =A0We also recorded ERPs triggered by the onse= t of > the pitch-shift stimulus. =A0In general the musicians with AP had larg= er > magnitude left hemisphere potentials (P200) than did the relative pitc= h > musicians. =A0However, we also noted that for the UPWARD pitch-shift<b= r> > stimulus, the P200 in the AP musicians, in contrast to the RP musician= s, > was more strongly left lateralized than for DOWNWARD pitch shifts. =A0= I am > trying to figure out why an upward shift in voice pitch auditory feedb= ack > in AP musicians would show stronger left hemisphere activation than a<= br> > downward pitch shift. > > I'D greatly appreciate any ideas you may have on this. > > Thanks, > > Chuck > > > > > ________________________________________ > > Chuck Larson > Dept. of Communication Sciences and Disorders > Room 3-348 > 2240 Campus Dr. > Northwestern University > Evanston, IL 60208 > Phone: 847-491-2424 > Cell: 847-830-5432 > Fax: 847-491-4975 > email: <a href=3D"mailto:clarson@xxxxxxxx">clarson@xxxxxxxx= n.edu</a> > > > > > > On 12/3/12 7:38 PM, "Kevin Austin" <<a href=3D"mailto:kev= in.austin@xxxxxxxx">kevin.austin@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote: > >> Thanks. >> >> I had been led to believe that frequency was encoded along the BM,= and >> that pitch was the interpretation of this stimulus. >> >> Kevin >> >> >> >> On 2012, Dec 2, at 8:47 AM, Bob Masta wrote: >> >>> Can someone explain the supposed mechanism behind neural timin= g and >>> pitch shift? =A0 I don't understand what is being proposed= . =A0As I >>> undestand it, since pitch is encoded as *place* along the BM, = the >>> neurons respond with a firing rate that encodes *loudness* for= their >>> particular frequency place. =A0The firing rate does not encode= the >>> frequency of =A0the sound itself. >>> >>> What am I missing here? >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Bob Masta >>> >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>> On 1 Dec 2012 at 9:50, Pierre Divenyi wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Oded, >>>> >>>> Your three-step reasoning makes sense but, indeed, it shou= ld be >>>> experimentally verified. As to the age-related change of n= eural >>>> oscillations, Art Wingfield believes that the brain "= slows down" as we >>>> get >>>> older. Such a slowing-down could also explain the upward A= P shift >>>> because >>>> our reference would shift downward. How this central effec= t squares >>>> with the >>>> peripheral, BM-stiffening effect is unknown but, again, co= uld be >>>> studied in >>>> the lab. >>>> >>>> -Pierre >>>> >>>> On 12/1/12 5:17 AM, "Oded Ghitza" <<a href=3D= "mailto:oghitza@xxxxxxxx">oghitza@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Pierre, >>>> If (1) you accept Julius's model of pitch perception, = (2) interpret -- >>>> as he >>>> did -- the central component of the model as a mechanism t= hat adjusts >>>> f0 of >>>> an internal harmonic sieve to the point where the MMSE bet= ween the >>>> sieve and >>>> the input pattern is minimum, and (3) assume that such mec= hanism is >>>> realized >>>> by a neuronal circuitry with oscillations ("rhythms&q= uot;) at the core >>>> (maybe >>>> related to Langer, in the late 80's and in the context= of pitch >>>> perception, >>>> who measured "temporal rings" in chicks); then, = a possible way to >>>> examine >>>> the phenomenon (whether perceived pitch should go up or do= wn, in >>>> particular), is to look at how the frequency range of neur= onal >>>> oscillations >>>> change with age. >>>> -- >>>> Oded. >>>> >>> Bob Masta >>> >>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 D A Q A R T A >>> Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis >>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0<a href=3D"http://www.daqarta.com" target= =3D"_blank">www.daqarta.com</a> >>> Scope, Spectrum, Spectrogram, Signal Generator >>> =A0 Science with your sound card! </blockquote></div> </div></div> --90e6ba10ad29aca91904d01bc1f4--

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