Subject: Re: The climb of absolute pitch From: Mitchell Cotter <mcotter7@xxxxxxxx> Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 05:45:17 -0500 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>--e89a8f2348cf9b1b4d04d018adfd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Why still all this talk about the BM when it is the tectorial membrane that contacts the array of hair cells? The hair cells are the operative producers of neural input to the auditory neural network of the midbrain that forms the pathway to the CNS. Why also are cochlea curved in a characteristic spiral? The tectorial membrane likewise follows this curved geometry. Traditional work in the field has generally neglected the work of Jim Fulton which satisfactorily explain some compelling facts of cochlea. They are spiral curved in a particular manner. The launching of energy into cochlea transmits the energy to the tectorial membrane. The tectorial membrane surface has exactly the appropriate dynamical properties providing for a *Surface Acoustic Wave* propagating along the spiral curve which is the basic spectrometer occurring BEFORE the neural processes operating on the signals from the numerous hair cell nerves. So hair cells operate on this spiral curved surface as well. Aging of tectorial membrane's surface could explain a lot of aging pitch shift effects since this alters the energy launching place from such a curved surface acoustic wave. Jim Fulton has published a remarkably compelling account of all the features of all such spiral cochlea found in animals. His work is easily available on the internet, which is there for anyone to peruse. Sadly most in the field have neglected examining it. Mitchell Cotter mcotter7@xxxxxxxx On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Chuck Larson <clarson@xxxxxxxx>wrote: > To all of you experts on absolute pitch, I have a question for you. > > I've been following your discussion on AP musicians in hopes that I would > learn something from you that would explain some of our EEG results. We > have tested musicians with absolute pitch and relative pitch on a > vocalization experiment in which they heard their voice (through > headphones) either shift up 100 cents or down 100 cents. The shifting was > done with a harmonizer. We also recorded ERPs triggered by the onset of > the pitch-shift stimulus. In general the musicians with AP had larger > magnitude left hemisphere potentials (P200) than did the relative pitch > musicians. However, we also noted that for the UPWARD pitch-shift > stimulus, the P200 in the AP musicians, in contrast to the RP musicians, > was more strongly left lateralized than for DOWNWARD pitch shifts. I am > trying to figure out why an upward shift in voice pitch auditory feedback > in AP musicians would show stronger left hemisphere activation than a > downward pitch shift. > > I'D greatly appreciate any ideas you may have on this. > > Thanks, > > Chuck > > > > > ________________________________________ > > Chuck Larson > Dept. of Communication Sciences and Disorders > Room 3-348 > 2240 Campus Dr. > Northwestern University > Evanston, IL 60208 > Phone: 847-491-2424 > Cell: 847-830-5432 > Fax: 847-491-4975 > email: clarson@xxxxxxxx > > > > > > On 12/3/12 7:38 PM, "Kevin Austin" <kevin.austin@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > > >Thanks. > > > >I had been led to believe that frequency was encoded along the BM, and > >that pitch was the interpretation of this stimulus. > > > >Kevin > > > > > > > >On 2012, Dec 2, at 8:47 AM, Bob Masta wrote: > > > >> Can someone explain the supposed mechanism behind neural timing and > >>pitch shift? I don't understand what is being proposed. As I > >>undestand it, since pitch is encoded as *place* along the BM, the > >>neurons respond with a firing rate that encodes *loudness* for their > >>particular frequency place. The firing rate does not encode the > >>frequency of the sound itself. > >> > >> What am I missing here? > >> > >> Best regards, > >> > >> Bob Masta > >> > >> ============= > >> On 1 Dec 2012 at 9:50, Pierre Divenyi wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Oded, > >>> > >>> Your three-step reasoning makes sense but, indeed, it should be > >>> experimentally verified. As to the age-related change of neural > >>> oscillations, Art Wingfield believes that the brain "slows down" as we > >>>get > >>> older. Such a slowing-down could also explain the upward AP shift > >>>because > >>> our reference would shift downward. How this central effect squares > >>>with the > >>> peripheral, BM-stiffening effect is unknown but, again, could be > >>>studied in > >>> the lab. > >>> > >>> -Pierre > >>> > >>> On 12/1/12 5:17 AM, "Oded Ghitza" <oghitza@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi Pierre, > >>> If (1) you accept Julius's model of pitch perception, (2) interpret -- > >>>as he > >>> did -- the central component of the model as a mechanism that adjusts > >>>f0 of > >>> an internal harmonic sieve to the point where the MMSE between the > >>>sieve and > >>> the input pattern is minimum, and (3) assume that such mechanism is > >>>realized > >>> by a neuronal circuitry with oscillations ("rhythms") at the core > >>>(maybe > >>> related to Langer, in the late 80's and in the context of pitch > >>>perception, > >>> who measured "temporal rings" in chicks); then, a possible way to > >>>examine > >>> the phenomenon (whether perceived pitch should go up or down, in > >>> particular), is to look at how the frequency range of neuronal > >>>oscillations > >>> change with age. > >>> -- > >>> Oded. > >>> > >> Bob Masta > >> > >> D A Q A R T A > >> Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis > >> www.daqarta.com > >> Scope, Spectrum, Spectrogram, Signal Generator > >> Science with your sound card! > --e89a8f2348cf9b1b4d04d018adfd Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Why still all this talk about the BM when it is the tectorial membrane that= contacts<div>the array of hair cells? The hair cells are the operative pro= ducers of neural input</div><div>=A0to the auditory neural network of the m= idbrain that forms the pathway to the CNS.</div> <div>Why also are cochlea curved in a characteristic spiral? The tectorial= =A0membrane=A0</div><div>likewise =A0follows this curved geometry.=A0</div>= <div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Traditional work in the field has genera= lly neglected=A0the work of Jim Fulton which</div> <div>satisfactorily explain some compelling facts of cochlea. They are spir= al curved in a=A0</div><div>particular manner. The launching of energy into= cochlea transmits the energy to the</div><div>tectorial membrane. =A0The t= ectorial membrane surface has exactly the appropriate</div> <div>dynamical properties providing for a <i><u>Surface Acoustic Wave</u></= i> propagating along the</div><div>spiral curve which is the basic spectrom= eter occurring BEFORE the neural processes</div><div>operating on the signa= ls from the numerous hair cell nerves.=A0So hair cells =A0operate=A0</div> <div>on this=A0spiral curved surface as well. Aging of tectorial membrane&#= 39;s=A0surface could=A0</div><div>explain=A0a lot of aging pitch shift effe= cts since this alters the energy launching place=A0</div><div>from such=A0a= curved surface acoustic wave.</div> <div><br></div><div>Jim Fulton has published a=A0remarkably compelling acco= unt of all the features of=A0</div><div>all such spiral cochlea=A0found in = animals.=A0</div><div>His work is easily available on the internet, which i= s there=A0for anyone=A0to peruse. =A0</div> <div>Sadly most in the field have neglected examining it.</div><div><br></d= iv><div>Mitchell Cotter</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:mcotter7@xxxxxxxx">mco= tter7@xxxxxxxx</a></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div> <br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Chuck Larson= <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:clarson@xxxxxxxx" target= =3D"_blank">clarson@xxxxxxxx</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote c= lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;= padding-left:1ex"> To all of you experts on absolute pitch, I have a question for you.<br> <br> I've been following your discussion on AP musicians in hopes that I wou= ld<br> learn something from you that would explain some of our EEG results. We<br> have tested musicians with absolute pitch and relative pitch on a<br> vocalization experiment in which they heard their voice (through<br> headphones) either shift up 100 cents or down 100 cents. =A0The shifting wa= s<br> done with a harmonizer. =A0We also recorded ERPs triggered by the onset of<= br> the pitch-shift stimulus. =A0In general the musicians with AP had larger<br= > magnitude left hemisphere potentials (P200) than did the relative pitch<br> musicians. =A0However, we also noted that for the UPWARD pitch-shift<br> stimulus, the P200 in the AP musicians, in contrast to the RP musicians,<br= > was more strongly left lateralized than for DOWNWARD pitch shifts. =A0I am<= br> trying to figure out why an upward shift in voice pitch auditory feedback<b= r> in AP musicians would show stronger left hemisphere activation than a<br> downward pitch shift.<br> <br> I'D greatly appreciate any ideas you may have on this.<br> <br> Thanks,<br> <br> Chuck<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> ________________________________________<br> <br> Chuck Larson<br> Dept. of Communication Sciences and Disorders<br> Room 3-348<br> 2240 Campus Dr.<br> Northwestern University<br> Evanston, IL 60208<br> Phone: <a href=3D"tel:847-491-2424" value=3D"+18474912424">847-491-2424</a>= <br> Cell: <a href=3D"tel:847-830-5432" value=3D"+18478305432">847-830-5432</a><= br> Fax: <a href=3D"tel:847-491-4975" value=3D"+18474914975">847-491-4975</a><b= r> email: <a href=3D"mailto:clarson@xxxxxxxx">clarson@xxxxxxxx= </a><br> <div class=3D"im HOEnZb"><br> <br> <br> <br> <br> On 12/3/12 7:38 PM, "Kevin Austin" <<a href=3D"mailto:kevin.au= stin@xxxxxxxx">kevin.austin@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br> <br> >Thanks.<br> ><br> >I had been led to believe that frequency was encoded along the BM, and<= br> >that pitch was the interpretation of this stimulus.<br> ><br> >Kevin<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> </div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">>On 2012, Dec 2, at 8:47 A= M, Bob Masta wrote:<br> ><br> >> Can someone explain the supposed mechanism behind neural timing an= d<br> >>pitch shift? =A0 I don't understand what is being proposed. =A0= As I<br> >>undestand it, since pitch is encoded as *place* along the BM, the<b= r> >>neurons respond with a firing rate that encodes *loudness* for thei= r<br> >>particular frequency place. =A0The firing rate does not encode the<= br> >>frequency of =A0the sound itself.<br> >><br> >> What am I missing here?<br> >><br> >> Best regards,<br> >><br> >> Bob Masta<br> >><br> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br> >> On 1 Dec 2012 at 9:50, Pierre Divenyi wrote:<br> >><br> >>> Hi Oded,<br> >>><br> >>> Your three-step reasoning makes sense but, indeed, it should b= e<br> >>> experimentally verified. As to the age-related change of neura= l<br> >>> oscillations, Art Wingfield believes that the brain "slow= s down" as we<br> >>>get<br> >>> older. Such a slowing-down could also explain the upward AP sh= ift<br> >>>because<br> >>> our reference would shift downward. How this central effect sq= uares<br> >>>with the<br> >>> peripheral, BM-stiffening effect is unknown but, again, could = be<br> >>>studied in<br> >>> the lab.<br> >>><br> >>> -Pierre<br> >>><br> >>> On 12/1/12 5:17 AM, "Oded Ghitza" <<a href=3D"mai= lto:oghitza@xxxxxxxx">oghitza@xxxxxxxx</a>> wrote:<br> >>><br> >>> Hi Pierre,<br> >>> If (1) you accept Julius's model of pitch perception, (2) = interpret --<br> >>>as he<br> >>> did -- the central component of the model as a mechanism that = adjusts<br> >>>f0 of<br> >>> an internal harmonic sieve to the point where the MMSE between= the<br> >>>sieve and<br> >>> the input pattern is minimum, and (3) assume that such mechani= sm is<br> >>>realized<br> >>> by a neuronal circuitry with oscillations ("rhythms"= ) at the core<br> >>>(maybe<br> >>> related to Langer, in the late 80's and in the context of = pitch<br> >>>perception,<br> >>> who measured "temporal rings" in chicks); then, a po= ssible way to<br> >>>examine<br> >>> the phenomenon (whether perceived pitch should go up or down, = in<br> >>> particular), is to look at how the frequency range of neuronal= <br> >>>oscillations<br> >>> change with age.<br> >>> --<br> >>> Oded.<br> >>><br> >> Bob Masta<br> >><br> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0D A Q A R T A<br> >> Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis<br> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 <a href=3D"http://www.daqarta.com" target=3D"_= blank">www.daqarta.com</a><br> >> Scope, Spectrum, Spectrogram, Signal Generator<br> >> =A0 =A0Science with your sound card!<br> </div></div></blockquote></div><br></div> --e89a8f2348cf9b1b4d04d018adfd--