Subject: Re: The climb of absolute pitch From: Sarah Hargus Ferguson <sarah.ferguson@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 21:06:54 +0000 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>--_000_EA397826B50628499AA874AA7B238A9D3AEB38D2XMB5xdsumailuta_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From Torre & Barlow (2009), p. 325: More detailed descriptions of age-related changes in speech indicate that, = for men, F0 drops approximately 10 Hz until around 50 years of age, and the= n begins to gradually increase by up to 35 Hz afterwards; for women, F0 con= tinues to decrease with age, or it stays constant until menopause after whi= ch time it decreases anywhere from 10 to 35 Hz (Decoster& Debruyne, 1997; H= ollien & Shipp, 1972; McGlone& Hollien, 1963; Sataloff et al., 1997). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sarah Hargus Ferguson, Ph.D., CCC-A Assistant Professor Department of Communication Sciences and Disorders University of Utah http://www.health.utah.edu/csd/faculty/DrSarahHargusFerguson.html From: Leon van Noorden [mailto:leonvannoorden@xxxxxxxx Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 12:08 PM To: Sarah Hargus Ferguson Cc: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx Subject: Re: The climb of absolute pitch Thank you very much, Sarah, this is very helpful. If you have these publication on hand, can you give us also an idea how big= this effect is? Kind regards, Leon On 01 Dec 2012, at 15:20, Sarah Hargus Ferguson wrote: Hollien & Shipp (1972) described F0 in males aged 20 to 89 and reported a p= attern that has been replicated in several other studies: in males, F0 fall= s with age until some tipping point (variously reported between 50 and 70 y= ears) and then starts to increase. For women, there aren't as many data bu= t it looks like F0 falls with age (e.g. Torre & Barlow 2009). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sarah Hargus Ferguson, Ph.D., CCC-A Assistant Professor Department of Communication Sciences and Disorders University of Utah http://www.health.utah.edu/csd/faculty/DrSarahHargusFerguson.html From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception [mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= ILL.CA] On Behalf Of Leon van Noorden Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2012 3:55 AM To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx<mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: The climb of absolute pitch Hi Diana et al, Diana, if I remember correctly, you have found that people's response, that= a melodic interval of a tritone with Risset tones goes up or down, depends= upon the relation between that interval with the basic frequency of their = voice. Wouldn't it be possible that people with absolute pitch have a similar rela= tion with the basic frequency of their voice. If this would be the case tha= n one has to assume that they could relearn this relation in the relatively= quick transition that happens in puberty, but that they do not relearn it = with the very gradual and minor change that happens during lifetime. I have the feeling that normally the basic frequency of your voice goes a b= ite down during lifetime, but I do not know about any systematic investigat= ion of this effect. Does anybody have data on this? In any case this could be a testable theory. Kind regards, Leon On 30 Nov 2012, at 21:29, Diana Deutsch wrote: Hi Leon et al, It has indeed tended to go down for me, though not reliably so. The strange= thing is that I still have this feeling of certainty when I name notes, ev= en when I'm a semitone off. This makes me think that the effect is peripher= al in origin, and that the central auditory system still interprets the inf= ormation it receives correctly. There's a related phenomenon that occurs wh= en people take carbamazepine (Tegretol). Those with absolute pitch hear a d= ownward pitch shift that they generally describe as around a semitone. Its = extent appears to increase with increasing frequency in an orderly fashion= over a six octave range. Braun and Chaloupa (Hearing Research, 2005, 210, = 85-92) were able to plot this in a concert pianist with absolute pitch who = made judgments both under carbamazepine and under placebo. Cheers, Diana Deutsch On Nov 30, 2012, at 1:25 AM, Leon van Noorden wrote: Brian, So for the optimists it should go down. I believe that Diana has found that in some cases indeed it goes down. I my case it has gone up one step of the the scale. However, I am not a rea= l pessimist. Leon On 30 Nov 2012, at 10:19, Brian Gygi wrote: Maybe it's the world that has changed and not you - it got lower (i.e., dar= ker, sadder) Brian Gygi, Ph.D. -----Original Message----- From: Pierre Divenyi [mailto:pdivenyi@xxxxxxxx Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 11:10 AM To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx<mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx> Subject: The climb of absolute pitch Hi, Several older persons who have had absolute pitch in their young years expe= rience perceiving a pitch by at least a half-tone (minor second) higher tha= n what it actually is ? a phenomenon that the French calls the "climb of th= e tuning fork" ("montee du diapason"). Since I am one of those unfortunate = individuals, I have been wondering what its physiological explanation is. C= an anyone on the list offer one? -Pierre Divenyi --_000_EA397826B50628499AA874AA7B238A9D3AEB38D2XMB5xdsumailuta_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micr= osoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:= //www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"= > <meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"> <style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @xxxxxxxx {font-family:Helvetica; panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} @xxxxxxxx {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @xxxxxxxx {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @xxxxxxxx {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} @xxxxxxxx {font-family:Verdana; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} @xxxxxxxx {font-family:AdvP41153C; 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for women, </span><span style=3D"font-= size:10.0pt;font-family:"AdvP4B2E3F","sans-serif";color= :black">F</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"AdvP41153= C","sans-serif";color:black">0 continues to decrease with ag= e, or it stays constant until menopause after which time it decreases anywher= e from 10 to 35 Hz (</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quo= t;AdvP41153C","sans-serif";color:#000066">Decoster& Debr= uyne, 1997; Hollien & Shipp, 1972; McGlone& Hollien, 1963; Sataloff et al., 1997</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&q= uot;AdvP41153C","sans-serif";color:black">).</span><span sty= le=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif&quo= t;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span><= /p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~= ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Sarah Hargus Ferguson, Ph= .D., CCC-A<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Assistant Professor<o:p><= /o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Department of Communicati= on Sciences and Disorders <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">University of Utah <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://www.health.utah.edu/csd/faculty/Dr= SarahHargusFerguson.html"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"= ;Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue">http://www.health.utah.ed= u/csd/faculty/DrSarahHargusFerguson.html</span></a><span style=3D"font-size= :11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D"><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span><= /p> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span><= /p> <div> <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in = 0in 0in"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"= ;Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s= ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Leon van= Noorden [mailto:leonvannoorden@xxxxxxxx <br> <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 02, 2012 12:08 PM<br> <b>To:</b> Sarah Hargus Ferguson<br> <b>Cc:</b> AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx<br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: The climb of absolute pitch<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thank you very much, Sarah, this is very helpfu= l.<o:p></o:p></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you have these publication on hand, can you give = us also an idea how big this effect is?<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Kind regards,<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Leon<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 01 Dec 2012, at 15:20, Sarah Hargus Ferguson wrot= e:<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br> <br> <o:p></o:p></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hollien & Shipp (1972= ) described F0 in males aged 20 to 89 and reported a pattern that has been = replicated in several other studies: in males, F0 falls with age until some tipping point (variously reported between 50 and 70 years) = and then starts to increase. For women, there aren’t as many da= ta but it looks like F0 falls with age (e.g. Torre & Barlow 2009). </span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p><= /p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p><= /p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~= ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Sarah Hargus Ferguson, Ph= .D., CCC-A</span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Assistant Professor</span= ><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Department of Communicati= on Sciences and Disorders </span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">University of Utah </span><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://www.health.utah.edu/csd/faculty/Dr= SarahHargusFerguson.html"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"= ;Calibri","sans-serif"">http://www.health.utah.edu/csd/facul= ty/DrSarahHargusFerguson.html</span></a><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p><= /p> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p><= /p> <div> <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in = 0in 0in"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"= ;Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s= ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> AUDITORY= - Research in Auditory Perception [mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <b>On Behalf Of </b>Leon van Noorden<br> <b>Sent:</b> Saturday, December 01, 2012 3:55 AM<br> <b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= L.CA</a><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: The climb of absolute pitch</span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Diana et al,<o:p></o:p></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Diana, if I remember correctly, you have found that = people's response, that a melodic interval of a tritone with Risset tones g= oes up or down, depends upon the relation between that interval with the ba= sic frequency of their voice.<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Wouldn't it be possible that people with absolute pi= tch have a similar relation with the basic frequency of their voice. If thi= s would be the case than one has to assume that they could relearn this rel= ation in the relatively quick transition that happens in puberty, but that they do not relearn it with the very gra= dual and minor change that happens during lifetime. <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have the feeling that normally the basic frequency= of your voice goes a bite down during lifetime, but I do not know about an= y systematic investigation of this effect. Does anybody have data on t= his?<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">In any case this could be a testable theory.<o:p></o= :p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Kind regards,<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Leon<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 30 Nov 2012, at 21:29, Diana Deutsch wrote:<o:p><= /o:p></p> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br> <br> <br> <o:p></o:p></p> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Leon et al,<o:p></o:p></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">It has indeed tended to go down for me, though not r= eliably so. The strange thing is that I still have this feeling of cer= tainty when I name notes, even when I'm a semitone off. This makes me think= that the effect is peripheral in origin, and that the central auditory system still interprets the information it r= eceives correctly. There's a related phenomenon that occurs when people tak= e carbamazepine (Tegretol). Those with absolute pitch hear a downward pitch= shift that they generally describe as around a semitone. Its extent appears to increase with increasing= frequency in an orderly fashion over a six octave range. Braun and Chaloup= a (Hearing Research, 2005, 210, 85-92) were able to plot this in a concert = pianist with absolute pitch who made judgments both under carbamazepine and under placebo.<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Diana Deutsch<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> <div> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Nov 30, 2012, at 1:25 AM, Leon van Noorden wrote:= <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br> <br> <br> <o:p></o:p></p> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Brian,<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">So for the optimists it should go down.<o:p></o:p></= p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">I believe that Diana has found that in some cases in= deed it goes down.<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">I my case it has gone up one step of the the scale. = However, I am not a real pessimist.<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Leon<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 30 Nov 2012, at 10:19, Brian Gygi wrote:<o:p></o:= p></p> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br> <br> <br> <o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Maybe it's the world that has changed and not you - = it got lower (i.e., darker, sadder)<o:p></o:p></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ve= rdana","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Brian Gygi, Ph.D.<o:p></o:p></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0= in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bo= ttom:5.0pt"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s= ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">-----Orig= inal Message-----<br> <b>From:</b> Pierre Divenyi [mailto:pdivenyi@xxxxxxxx<br> <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 29, 2012 11:10 AM<br> <b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx= L.CA</a><br> <b>Subject:</b> The climb of absolute pitch</span><o:p></o:p></p> <table class=3D"MsoNormalTable" border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" width=3D"100= %" style=3D"width:100.0%;z-index:auto" id=3D"201179"> <tbody> <tr> <td width=3D"100%" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:100.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt= .75pt .75pt"> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Several older persons who have had absolute pitch in= their young years experience perceiving a pitch by at least a half-tone (m= inor second) higher than what it actually is ? a phenomenon that the French= calls the "climb of the tuning fork" ("montee du diapason"). Since I am one of those unfortunate indi= viduals, I have been wondering what its physiological explanation is. Can a= nyone on the list offer one?<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Pierre Divenyi<o:p></o:p></p> </div> </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> </blockquote> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> <div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Hel= vetica","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> </div> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> </div> </body> </html> --_000_EA397826B50628499AA874AA7B238A9D3AEB38D2XMB5xdsumailuta_--