Subject: Re: The climb of absolute pitch From: Leon van Noorden <leonvannoorden@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 20:07:36 +0100 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>--Boundary_(ID_rlZ4w7s6NnIZ+nDohyuxbw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thank you very much, Sarah, this is very helpful. If you have these publication on hand, can you give us also an idea how = big this effect is? Kind regards, Leon On 01 Dec 2012, at 15:20, Sarah Hargus Ferguson wrote: > Hollien & Shipp (1972) described F0 in males aged 20 to 89 and = reported a pattern that has been replicated in several other studies: in = males, F0 falls with age until some tipping point (variously reported = between 50 and 70 years) and then starts to increase. For women, there = aren=92t as many data but it looks like F0 falls with age (e.g. Torre & = Barlow 2009). > =20 > =20 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Sarah Hargus Ferguson, Ph.D., CCC-A > Assistant Professor > Department of Communication Sciences and Disorders > University of Utah > http://www.health.utah.edu/csd/faculty/DrSarahHargusFerguson.html > =20 > =20 > From: AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception = [mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Leon van Noorden > Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2012 3:55 AM > To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx > Subject: Re: The climb of absolute pitch > =20 > Hi Diana et al, > =20 > Diana, if I remember correctly, you have found that people's response, = that a melodic interval of a tritone with Risset tones goes up or down, = depends upon the relation between that interval with the basic frequency = of their voice. > =20 > Wouldn't it be possible that people with absolute pitch have a similar = relation with the basic frequency of their voice. If this would be the = case than one has to assume that they could relearn this relation in the = relatively quick transition that happens in puberty, but that they do = not relearn it with the very gradual and minor change that happens = during lifetime.=20 > =20 > I have the feeling that normally the basic frequency of your voice = goes a bite down during lifetime, but I do not know about any systematic = investigation of this effect. Does anybody have data on this? > =20 > In any case this could be a testable theory. > =20 > Kind regards, > Leon > =20 > =20 > On 30 Nov 2012, at 21:29, Diana Deutsch wrote: >=20 >=20 > =20 > Hi Leon et al, > =20 > It has indeed tended to go down for me, though not reliably so. The = strange thing is that I still have this feeling of certainty when I name = notes, even when I'm a semitone off. This makes me think that the effect = is peripheral in origin, and that the central auditory system still = interprets the information it receives correctly. There's a related = phenomenon that occurs when people take carbamazepine (Tegretol). Those = with absolute pitch hear a downward pitch shift that they generally = describe as around a semitone. Its extent appears to increase with = increasing frequency in an orderly fashion over a six octave range. = Braun and Chaloupa (Hearing Research, 2005, 210, 85-92) were able to = plot this in a concert pianist with absolute pitch who made judgments = both under carbamazepine and under placebo. > =20 > Cheers, > =20 > Diana Deutsch > =20 > =20 > =20 > On Nov 30, 2012, at 1:25 AM, Leon van Noorden wrote: >=20 >=20 > Brian, > =20 > So for the optimists it should go down. > I believe that Diana has found that in some cases indeed it goes down. > I my case it has gone up one step of the the scale. However, I am not = a real pessimist. > =20 > Leon > =20 > On 30 Nov 2012, at 10:19, Brian Gygi wrote: >=20 >=20 > Maybe it's the world that has changed and not you - it got lower = (i.e., darker, sadder) > =20 > Brian Gygi, Ph.D. > =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Pierre Divenyi [mailto:pdivenyi@xxxxxxxx > Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 11:10 AM > To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx > Subject: The climb of absolute pitch >=20 > Hi, > =20 > Several older persons who have had absolute pitch in their young years = experience perceiving a pitch by at least a half-tone (minor second) = higher than what it actually is ? a phenomenon that the French calls the = "climb of the tuning fork" ("montee du diapason"). Since I am one of = those unfortunate individuals, I have been wondering what its = physiological explanation is. Can anyone on the list offer one? > =20 > -Pierre Divenyi > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 --Boundary_(ID_rlZ4w7s6NnIZ+nDohyuxbw) Content-type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable <html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Thank = you very much, Sarah, this is very helpful.<div>If you have these = publication on hand, can you give us also an idea how big this effect = is?</div><div><br></div><div>Kind = regards,</div><div>Leon</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On 01 Dec = 2012, at 15:20, Sarah Hargus Ferguson wrote:</div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered = medium)"> <style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @xxxxxxxx {font-family:Helvetica; panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} @xxxxxxxx {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @xxxxxxxx {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @xxxxxxxx {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} @xxxxxxxx {font-family:Verdana; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} span.apple-style-span {mso-style-name:apple-style-span;} span.EmailStyle18 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-size:10.0pt;} @xxxxxxxx WordSection1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} --></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> <div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wrap: = break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: = after-white-space"> <div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a = name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span = style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif= ";color:#1F497D">Hollien & Shipp (1972) described F0 in males = aged 20 to 89 and reported a pattern that has been replicated in several = other studies: in males, F0 falls with age until some tipping point (variously = reported between 50 and 70 years) and then starts to increase. For = women, there aren=92t as many data but it looks like F0 falls with age = (e.g. Torre & Barlow 2009). <o:p></o:p></span></a></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span = style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif= ";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p = class=3D"MsoNormal"><span = style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif= ";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span = style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif= ";color:#1F497D">~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~= ~<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span = style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif= ";color:#1F497D">Sarah Hargus Ferguson, Ph.D., = CCC-A<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span = style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif= ";color:#1F497D">Assistant Professor<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3D"MsoNormal"><span = style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif= ";color:#1F497D">Department of Communication Sciences and Disorders <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span = style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif= ";color:#1F497D">University of Utah <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a = href=3D"http://www.health.utah.edu/csd/faculty/DrSarahHargusFerguson.html"= ><span = style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif= ";color:blue">http://www.health.utah.edu/csd/faculty/DrSarahHargusFer= guson.html</span></a><span = style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif= ";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span = style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif= ";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span = style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif= ";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <div> <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt = 0in 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span = style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif&= quot;">From:</span></b><span = style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif&= quot;"> AUDITORY - Research in Auditory Perception = [mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx <b>On Behalf Of </b>Leon van Noorden<br> <b>Sent:</b> Saturday, December 01, 2012 3:55 AM<br> <b>To:</b> <a = href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: The climb of absolute pitch<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><p = class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Diana et al,<o:p></o:p></p> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Diana, if I remember correctly, you have = found that people's response, that a melodic interval of a tritone with = Risset tones goes up or down, depends upon the relation between that = interval with the basic frequency of their voice.<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Wouldn't it be possible that people with = absolute pitch have a similar relation with the basic frequency of their = voice. If this would be the case than one has to assume that they could = relearn this relation in the relatively quick transition that happens in puberty, but that they do not relearn it with the very = gradual and minor change that happens during = lifetime. <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have the feeling that normally the basic = frequency of your voice goes a bite down during lifetime, but I do not = know about any systematic investigation of this effect. Does = anybody have data on this?<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">In any case this could be a testable = theory.<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Kind regards,<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Leon<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 30 Nov 2012, at 21:29, Diana Deutsch = wrote:<o:p></o:p></p> </div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br> <br> <o:p></o:p></p> <div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Leon et al,<o:p></o:p></p> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">It has indeed tended to go down for me, = though not reliably so. The strange thing is that I still have this = feeling of certainty when I name notes, even when I'm a semitone off. = This makes me think that the effect is peripheral in origin, and that the central auditory system still interprets the information = it receives correctly. There's a related phenomenon that occurs when = people take carbamazepine (Tegretol). Those with absolute pitch hear a = downward pitch shift that they generally describe as around a semitone. Its extent appears to increase with = increasing frequency in an orderly fashion over a six octave range. = Braun and Chaloupa (Hearing Research, 2005, 210, 85-92) were able to = plot this in a concert pianist with absolute pitch who made judgments both under carbamazepine and under placebo.<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Diana Deutsch<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <div> <div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Nov 30, 2012, at 1:25 AM, Leon van = Noorden wrote:<o:p></o:p></p> </div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br> <br> <o:p></o:p></p> <div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Brian,<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">So for the optimists it should go = down.<o:p></o:p></p> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I believe that Diana has found that in some = cases indeed it goes down.<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I my case it has gone up one step of the the = scale. However, I am not a real pessimist.<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Leon<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 30 Nov 2012, at 10:19, Brian Gygi = wrote:<o:p></o:p></p> </div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br> <br> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Maybe it's the world that has = changed and not you - it got lower (i.e., darker, sadder)<o:p></o:p></p> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span = style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif= ""> </span><o:p></o:p></p> </div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Brian Gygi, Ph.D.<o:p></o:p></p> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue = 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in = 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5= .0pt"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span = style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif&= quot;">-----Original Message-----<br> <b>From:</b> Pierre Divenyi [mailto:pdivenyi@xxxxxxxx<br> <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 29, 2012 11:10 AM<br> <b>To:</b> <a = href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a><br> <b>Subject:</b> The climb of absolute pitch</span><o:p></o:p></p> <table class=3D"MsoNormalTable" border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" = width=3D"100%" style=3D"width:100.0%;z-index:auto" id=3D"201179"> <tbody> <tr> <td width=3D"100%" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:100.0%;padding:.75pt = .75pt .75pt .75pt"> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Several older persons who have had absolute = pitch in their young years experience perceiving a pitch by at least a = half-tone (minor second) higher than what it actually is ? a phenomenon = that the French calls the "climb of the tuning fork" ("montee du diapason"). Since I am one of those unfortunate = individuals, I have been wondering what its physiological explanation = is. Can anyone on the list offer one?<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Pierre Divenyi<o:p></o:p></p> </div> </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> </blockquote> </div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> </div> </div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <div> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span = style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-seri= f""><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div> </div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> </div> </div> </div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>= --Boundary_(ID_rlZ4w7s6NnIZ+nDohyuxbw)--