Subject: Re: The climb of absolute pitch From: Justin London <jlondon@xxxxxxxx> Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 05:23:53 -0600 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>--Apple-Mail-1-244195767 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear All, I was under the impression that the downward shift in AP with age was = due to/related to calcification of the auditory nerve (or other effects = of again on nerve function)--a kind of signal loss or degradation that = occurs as information from the auditory periphery makes its way to the = CNS . . . is this not correct? With thanks, Justin London On Dec 1, 2012, at 4:55 AM, Leon van Noorden wrote: > Hi Diana et al, >=20 > Diana, if I remember correctly, you have found that people's response, = that a melodic interval of a tritone with Risset tones goes up or down, = depends upon the relation between that interval with the basic frequency = of their voice. >=20 > Wouldn't it be possible that people with absolute pitch have a similar = relation with the basic frequency of their voice. If this would be the = case than one has to assume that they could relearn this relation in the = relatively quick transition that happens in puberty, but that they do = not relearn it with the very gradual and minor change that happens = during lifetime.=20 >=20 > I have the feeling that normally the basic frequency of your voice = goes a bite down during lifetime, but I do not know about any systematic = investigation of this effect. Does anybody have data on this? >=20 > In any case this could be a testable theory. >=20 > Kind regards, > Leon >=20 >=20 > On 30 Nov 2012, at 21:29, Diana Deutsch wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> Hi Leon et al, >>=20 >> It has indeed tended to go down for me, though not reliably so. The = strange thing is that I still have this feeling of certainty when I name = notes, even when I'm a semitone off. This makes me think that the effect = is peripheral in origin, and that the central auditory system still = interprets the information it receives correctly. There's a related = phenomenon that occurs when people take carbamazepine (Tegretol). Those = with absolute pitch hear a downward pitch shift that they generally = describe as around a semitone. Its extent appears to increase with = increasing frequency in an orderly fashion over a six octave range. = Braun and Chaloupa (Hearing Research, 2005, 210, 85-92) were able to = plot this in a concert pianist with absolute pitch who made judgments = both under carbamazepine and under placebo. >>=20 >> Cheers, >>=20 >> Diana Deutsch >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Nov 30, 2012, at 1:25 AM, Leon van Noorden wrote: >>=20 >>> Brian, >>>=20 >>> So for the optimists it should go down. >>> I believe that Diana has found that in some cases indeed it goes = down. >>> I my case it has gone up one step of the the scale. However, I am = not a real pessimist. >>>=20 >>> Leon >>>=20 >>> On 30 Nov 2012, at 10:19, Brian Gygi wrote: >>>=20 >>>> Maybe it's the world that has changed and not you - it got lower = (i.e., darker, sadder) >>>> =20 >>>> Brian Gygi, Ph.D. >>>> =20 >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Pierre Divenyi [mailto:pdivenyi@xxxxxxxx >>>> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 11:10 AM >>>> To: AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx >>>> Subject: The climb of absolute pitch >>>>=20 >>>> Hi, >>>>=20 >>>> Several older persons who have had absolute pitch in their young = years experience perceiving a pitch by at least a half-tone (minor = second) higher than what it actually is ? a phenomenon that the French = calls the "climb of the tuning fork" ("montee du diapason"). Since I am = one of those unfortunate individuals, I have been wondering what its = physiological explanation is. Can anyone on the list offer one? >>>>=20 >>>> -Pierre Divenyi >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 ************************************************* Justin London Affiliated Researcher, Centre for Music and Science, University of = Cambridge Professor of Music (and other stuff), Carleton College Department of Music One North College St. Northfield, MN 55057 USA 507-222-4397 fax 507-222-5561 jlondon@xxxxxxxx --Apple-Mail-1-244195767 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii <html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Dear = All,<div><br></div><div>I was under the impression that the downward = shift in AP with age was due to/related to calcification of the auditory = nerve (or other effects of again on nerve function)--a kind of signal = loss or degradation that occurs as information from the auditory = periphery makes its way to the CNS . . . is this not = correct?</div><div><br></div><div>With thanks,</div><div>Justin = London</div><div><br><div><div>On Dec 1, 2012, at 4:55 AM, Leon van = Noorden wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: = space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi Diana et = al,<div><br></div><div>Diana, if I remember correctly, you have found = that people's response, that a melodic interval of a tritone with Risset = tones goes up or down, depends upon the relation between that interval = with the basic frequency of their = voice.</div><div><br></div><div>Wouldn't it be possible that people with = absolute pitch have a similar relation with the basic frequency of their = voice. If this would be the case than one has to assume that they could = relearn this relation in the relatively quick transition that happens in = puberty, but that they do not relearn it with the very gradual and minor = change that happens during lifetime. </div><div><br></div><div>I = have the feeling that normally the basic frequency of your voice goes a = bite down during lifetime, but I do not know about any systematic = investigation of this effect. Does anybody have data on = this?</div><div><br></div><div>In any case this could be a testable = theory.</div><div><br></div><div>Kind = regards,</div><div>Leon</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On 30 Nov = 2012, at 21:29, Diana Deutsch wrote:</div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div = style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; = -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><br></div>Hi Leon et = al,<div><br></div><div>It has indeed tended to go down for me, though = not reliably so. The strange thing is that I still have this = feeling of certainty when I name notes, even when I'm a semitone off. = This makes me think that the effect is peripheral in origin, and that = the central auditory system still interprets the information it receives = correctly. There's a related phenomenon that occurs when people take = carbamazepine (Tegretol). Those with absolute pitch hear a downward = pitch shift that they generally describe as around a semitone. Its = extent appears to increase with increasing frequency in an orderly = fashion over a six octave range. Braun and Chaloupa (Hearing Research, = 2005, 210, 85-92) were able to plot this in a concert pianist with = absolute pitch who made judgments both under carbamazepine and = under = placebo.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div><br></div><div>Diana = Deutsch</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div><div>On = Nov 30, 2012, at 1:25 AM, Leon van Noorden wrote:</div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; = "><div>Brian,</div><div><br></div>So for the optimists it should go = down.<div>I believe that Diana has found that in some cases indeed it = goes down.</div><div>I my case it has gone up one step of the the scale. = However, I am not a real = pessimist.</div><div><br></div><div>Leon</div><div><br><div><div>On 30 = Nov 2012, at 10:19, Brian Gygi wrote:</div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite">Maybe it's = the world that has changed and not you - it got lower (i.e., darker, = sadder)<br><div><font face=3D"Verdana" size=3D"2"> </font></div> Brian Gygi, Ph.D.<div><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Verdana" = size=3D"2"></font> </div> <blockquote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: = #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><font face=3D"Tahoma" = size=3D"2">-----Original Message-----<br><b>From:</b> Pierre Divenyi = [mailto:pdivenyi@xxxxxxxx<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November = 29, 2012 11:10 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a = href=3D"mailto:AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx">AUDITORY@xxxxxxxx</a><br><= b>Subject:</b> The climb of absolute pitch<br><br></font><table = id=3D"201179" border=3D"0" height=3D"400" width=3D"100%" = style=3D"position: static; z-index: auto; "><tbody><tr><td valign=3D"top" = width=3D"100%"><div>Hi,</div><div><br></div><div>Several older persons = who have had absolute pitch in their young years experience perceiving a = pitch by at least a half-tone (minor second) higher than what it = actually is ? a phenomenon that the French calls the "climb of the = tuning fork" ("montee du diapason"). Since I am one of those unfortunate = individuals, I have been wondering what its physiological explanation = is. Can anyone on the list offer one?</div><div><br></div><div>-Pierre = Divenyi</div> </td></tr></tbody></table></blockquote> </blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br><div = apple-content-edited=3D"true"> <span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; = font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; = font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; = line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; = white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: = 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: = auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"font-size: 12px; "><div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span></span> </div> = <br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></di= v><br><div> <span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; = color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; = font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; = line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; = text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: = 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: = auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span = class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: = rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: = normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: = normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: = normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: = 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: = auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div = style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; = -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: = Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; = font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; = orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; = widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: = auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style=3D"word-wrap: = break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: = after-white-space; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: = Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; = font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; = orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; = widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: = auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style=3D"word-wrap: = break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: = after-white-space; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: = Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; = font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; = orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; = widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: = auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style=3D"word-wrap: = break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: = after-white-space; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" = style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: = Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; = font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; = orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; = widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; = -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: = auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style=3D"word-wrap: = break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: = after-white-space; = "><div><div>*************************************************</div><div>Ju= stin London</div><div>Affiliated Researcher, <i>Centre for Music = and Science,<span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span></i>University of = Cambridge</div><div>Professor of Music (and other stuff), Carleton = College</div><div>Department of Music</div><div>One North College = St.</div><div>Northfield, MN 55057 = USA</div><div>507-222-4397</div><div>fax 507-222-5561</div><div><a = href=3D"mailto:jlondon@xxxxxxxx">jlondon@xxxxxxxx</a></div><div><b= r></div></div></div></span><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></span><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"> </div> <br></div></body></html>= --Apple-Mail-1-244195767--