Subject: Re: Auditory perceptual blocks / guides From: eldad tsabary <tazberrydocs@xxxxxxxx> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 02:05:38 -0500 List-Archive:<http://lists.mcgill.ca/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=AUDITORY>--Apple-Mail=_1A0F747B-67EB-46FB-ABA5-A1C4A20CC138 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hi Bernard Thanks much, I appreciate your comments I agree with your distinction between analytical listening and = interpretations based on learned patterns. And intuitively I think you = are correct in linking the analytical mode to creativity. And yes, certainly the training involves segregation, working with = distractions, masking noise, clusters, and micropoliphony. At times such = drills begin with a familiarization stage in which the individual = components are played first before the mix comes in, allowing a kind of = an old+new heuristics effect (a perceptual anchor?)=20 I think that your observation about intervallic/harmonic hearing not = being about auditory organization may be true. This type of organization = is (also) at a higher processing level than the auditory scene analysis = (as I understand it). However, the problem of learned patterns and = perceptual guides is quite relevant there as well. Cheers Eldad On 2012-11-26, at 3:00 PM, Bernard Mont-Reynaud wrote: > (Cc'd to my work email -- to keep in the thread) >=20 > I don't have a straight answer to your questions, but I found them so = interesting > that I am compelled to comment. As a matter of background, I was = interested in=20 > auditory modelling since the 80's, notably heading a repeatedly = NSF-funded=20 > project at CCRMA (1980-1991) and continuing to keep an eye on the = field and > developing my own thoughts. In the late 80's I was fortunate that Al = Bregman=20 > was spending a sabbatical at CCRMA, while preparing his book on = Auditory=20 > Scene Analysis, and I was perhaps the most avid audience for his = thoughts=20 > on the matter, since I was working on a computer model of audition. = Anyway > the problem is quite difficult, as you know, and much research is = still ahead=20 > of us. It would surprise me if you got very good answers to your = questions,=20 > based on computer modelling, because (IMHO) people are still missing = the=20 > point on much less refined questions.=20 >=20 > Another caveat: I have never been involved in ear training; but I did = work=20 > with sound in professional audio studios (building multi-track systems = at=20 > Lucasfilm, 82-84, Studer Editech, early 90's and at Sony SACD, early=20= > 2000's) and got to appreciate sound quality. >=20 > All this said, I'll try to give some specific comments. >=20 > On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 10:24 AM, eldad tsabary = <tazberrydocs@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > Hi all, > I am looking for some ideas and literature on two concepts relevant to = ear training. >=20 > 1. perceptual blocks - the case where a lack of perceptual = flexibility, inability to change attentional focus, or hear at a = different structural level, or any other aspect of perception, prevents = ear training students from discriminating, segregating, or identifying = sonic or musical parameters despite regular practice. I have used the = term "perceptual block" to describe such instances, though in the = literature, this term is usually associated with theories of creativity = (and while I find some parallels , these concepts are quite different). >=20 > The tendency of the perceptual system(s) is to go to the highest level = of interpretation that is available for the stimuli. This is the exact = opposite of analytical listening. The difficulty with teaching or = developing analytical listening is to overcome the ingrained habits of = the perceptual system, which have vastly reinforced over time. (And this = has a lot to do with creativity, which involves overcoming usual = patterns of thought -- or perception.)=20 >=20 > Does your practice involve decomposing mixtures (say A + B + C) after = giving training in listening to A, B, C individually -- perhaps shortly = before the mix, so you invite a state of segregation? >=20 > One of many such blocks, for example, could be (in the tonal domain) a = perceptual habit that could be described, perhaps, as "tonal = interference." In such cases, the students seem to listen to a certain = interval in the context of previous tonal stimuli and may get thrown off = by that contextual modality. A simple example of that is in listening to = a minor third E-G right after hearing the major third C-E. In my = experience, students often hear the minor third in the context of a C = major triad and therefore hear it as having a major modality (or = "feel").=20 >=20 > Confusing the feel of the chord with the feel of the interval...=20 >=20 > This is only one type of example. I am looking for any literature that = deal (more widely or more specifically) with the concept of auditory = organization being stuck on a certain interpretation, inhibiting skill = acquisition. >=20 > I am not sure this one is some much about auditory organization as it = is about training intervallic listening vs, harmonic listening. If the C = chord is still ringing in the ears, the E-G interval fits right in, and = may not be heard specifically as an interval, the way it would be heard = "cold". >=20 > 2. perceptual guides or anchors - the case where ear training students = find a relatively reliable perceptual reference point that allows them = to identify a certain sonic or musical parameter by comparison. An = example from the tonal domain, again, may be the technique of learning = how scale degrees sound by comparing them in the mind's ear to the tonic = as a steady anchor. In another example, students practicing microtonal = discrimination (down to about 5 cents differences) discovered that the = acoustics of the room had an effect on the spatial perception of = microtonal variation in pure tones. They used their spatial perception = as an anchoring mechanism to recognizing microtonal differences.=20 >=20 > I have to go, may return to this second idea later.=20 >=20 > Best wishes with the interesting research, and please share = interesting referencers with the group, > -bernard > =20 >=20 > The second example is of course very different from the first, but I = am interested in both and more. I am looking for any literature that = deals with perceptual organization strategies (in attentive processing) = that can be used to acquire aural skills by providing a reliable = reference point. >=20 > I would also love some ideas about these concepts. >=20 > Many thanks > Eldad >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_1A0F747B-67EB-46FB-ABA5-A1C4A20CC138 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 <html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi = Bernard<div>Thanks much, I appreciate your comments</div><div>I agree = with your distinction between analytical listening and interpretations = based on learned patterns. And intuitively I think you are correct in = linking the analytical mode to creativity.</div><div><br></div><div>And = yes, certainly the training involves segregation, working with = distractions, masking noise, clusters, and micropoliphony. At times such = drills begin with a familiarization stage in which the individual = components are played first before the mix comes in, allowing a kind of = an old+new heuristics effect (a perceptual = anchor?) </div><div><br></div><div>I think that your observation = about intervallic/harmonic hearing not being about auditory organization = may be true. This type of organization is (also) at a higher processing = level than the auditory scene analysis (as I understand it). However, = the problem of learned patterns and perceptual guides is quite relevant = there as = well.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers</div><div>Eldad</div><div><br></div>= <div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div><div>On 2012-11-26, at 3:00 PM, = Bernard Mont-Reynaud wrote:</div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite">(Cc'd to = my work email -- to keep in the thread)<br><br>I don't have a straight = answer to your questions, but I found them so interesting<br>that I am = compelled to comment. As a matter of background, I was interested in = <br> auditory modelling since the 80's, notably heading a repeatedly = NSF-funded <br>project at CCRMA (1980-1991) and continuing to keep an = eye on the field and<br>developing my own thoughts. In the late 80's I = was fortunate that Al Bregman <br> was spending a sabbatical at CCRMA, while preparing his book on Auditory = <br>Scene Analysis, and I was perhaps the most avid audience for his = thoughts <br>on the matter, since I was working on a computer model of = audition. Anyway<br> the problem is quite difficult, as you know, and much research is still = ahead <br>of us. It would surprise me if you got very good answers to = your questions, <br>based on computer modelling, because (IMHO) people = are still missing the <br> point on much less refined questions. <br><br>Another caveat: I have = never been involved in ear training; but I did work <br>with sound in = professional audio studios (building multi-track systems at = <br>Lucasfilm, 82-84, Studer Editech, early 90's and at Sony SACD, early = <br> 2000's) and got to appreciate sound quality.<br><br>All this said, I'll = try to give some specific comments.<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On = Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 10:24 AM, eldad tsabary <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a = href=3D"mailto:tazberrydocs@xxxxxxxx" = target=3D"_blank">tazberrydocs@xxxxxxxx</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 = .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div = style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Hi all,<div>I am looking for some ideas = and literature on two concepts relevant to ear training.</div> <div><br></div><div>1. perceptual <b>blocks</b> - the case where a lack = of perceptual flexibility, inability to change attentional focus, or = hear at a different structural level, or any other aspect of perception, = prevents ear training students from discriminating, segregating, or = identifying sonic or musical parameters despite regular practice. I have = used the term "perceptual block" to describe such instances, though in = the literature, this term is usually associated with theories of = creativity (and while I find some parallels , these concepts are quite = different).</div> </div></blockquote><div><br>The tendency of the perceptual system(s) is = to go to the highest level of interpretation that is available for the = stimuli. This is the exact opposite of analytical listening. The = difficulty with teaching or developing analytical listening is to = overcome the ingrained habits of the perceptual system, which have = vastly reinforced over time. (And this has a lot to do with creativity, = which involves overcoming usual patterns of thought -- or perception.) = <br> <br>Does your practice involve decomposing mixtures (say A + B + C) = after giving training in listening to A, B, C individually -- perhaps = shortly before the mix, so you invite a state of = segregation?<br><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" = style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>One of many such blocks, for = example, could be (in the tonal domain) a perceptual habit that could be = described, perhaps, as "tonal interference." In such cases, the students = seem to listen to a certain interval in the context of previous tonal = stimuli and may get thrown off by that contextual modality. A simple = example of that is in listening to a minor third E-G right after hearing = the major third C-E. In my experience, students often hear the minor = third in the context of a C major triad and therefore hear it as having = a major modality (or "feel"). </div> </div></blockquote><div><br>Confusing the feel of the chord with the = feel of the interval... <br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" = style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc = solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"> <div><br></div><div>This is only one type of example. I am looking for = any literature that deal (more widely or more specifically) with the = concept of auditory organization being stuck on a certain = interpretation, inhibiting skill acquisition.</div> </div></blockquote><div><br>I am not sure this one is some much about = auditory organization as it is about training intervallic listening vs, = harmonic listening. If the C chord is still ringing in the ears, the E-G = interval fits right in, and may not be heard specifically as an = interval, the way it would be heard "cold".<br> </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 = .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div = style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><br></div><div>2. perceptual = <b>guides or anchors</b> - the case where ear training students find a = relatively reliable perceptual reference point that allows them to = identify a certain sonic or musical parameter by comparison. An example = from the tonal domain, again, may be the technique of learning how scale = degrees sound by comparing them in the mind's ear to the tonic as a = steady anchor. In another example, students practicing microtonal = discrimination (down to about 5 cents differences) discovered that the = acoustics of the room had an effect on the spatial perception of = microtonal variation in pure tones. They used their spatial perception = as an anchoring mechanism to recognizing microtonal = differences. </div> </div></blockquote><div><br>I have to go, may return to this second idea = later. <br><br>Best wishes with the interesting research, and please = share interesting referencers with the = group,<br>-bernard<br> <br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" = style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><br></div><div>The second = example is of course very different from the first, but I am interested = in both and more. I am looking for any literature that deals with = perceptual organization strategies (in attentive processing) that can be = used to acquire aural skills by providing a reliable reference = point.</div> <div><br></div><div>I would also love some ideas about these = concepts.</div><div><br></div><div>Many thanks</div><span = class=3D"HOEnZb"><font = color=3D"#888888"><div>Eldad</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><= /div></font></span></div> </blockquote></div><br> </blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>= --Apple-Mail=_1A0F747B-67EB-46FB-ABA5-A1C4A20CC138--